Declining Results After two years of supplement use and dropping the drugs

There is no consensus on this forum. Some think DHT is the problem, some don’t, some blame too much estrogen or too much testosterone and on and on.

I cannot speak for anyone else but my experience so far is simple. Stopping Propecia (dht control) increases loss, drinking too much alcohol (estrogen balance) increases loss. Not getting enough sleep and dealing with stressful satiations increases loss. Eating junk which results in GI Tract inflammation increases loss. It seems that anything that pushes my system over the edge results in increased loss. The good news is that getting back on track slows the loss and eventually produces growth.
My hormone panel revealed that my estradiol (E2) is much higher than normal (probably due to 10 years of Peopecia use), as much as three times higher at times. My testosterone is in the mid range for my age 40-50. DHT was never measures. My TSH average is 2.5 – 3.0 and has remained at this level for three years now. My free T3 and T4 are both normal and at mid level. My morning cortisol has been slightly lower than normal in the morning and noon for about two years now.

So what helps me?

1. Propecia (or some form of DHT control)
2. No alcohol
3. Getting enough sleep (from 10pm to 7am)
4. Eating well
5. Aerobic and resistance training
6. Iodine (helps increase energy)
7. Reducing stress by controlling how I react to stressful situations

Sure everyone’s biochemistry is different, but I would think that the basics are the same for everyone.
Thoughts?

Baller234 – I started Jarrow’s Fermented Soy Essence and Iso-Rich Soy Greens today. Hopefully this will have a positive effect on my hair.
http://www.jarrow.com/product/117/Iso_Rich_Soy_Greens
http://www.jarrow.com/product/352/Fermented_Soy_Essence

Hairseeker, I totally agree with you about the necessity of controlling stress. Diet, exercise, and sufficient sleep are important, indeed.

But I have experienced a more sustained level of success since abandoning my mission to "block DHT," per se, and instead, seeking out herbal supplements which could lower inflammation, reduce cholesterol levels, facilitate the metabolism of insulin, and remove heavy metals.

The Natural, do you mind sharing your age? That could have something to due with why lowering DHT/androgen stimuli has proven ineffective for you. CS has commented that androgen blockade/inhibition is most effective in the young.

baller, I am in the 35-45 year old age bracket, and have tried the "so-called natural DHT blockers" for years with intermittent success.

The last time (about three years ago), I did experience a loss of libido, while taking a natural supplement called PROSTOL by Nature's Way, a concentrated herbal combination of saw palmetto and nettles. So posters should be aware that herbs which inhibit the production of DHT can potentially cause side effects similar to those experienced by Avodart and Propecia users.

The Natural – My decision to stop DHT blockers on several occasions was based on information on this forum. Unfortunately every time I stop more hair is lost. Others have reported sustained growth after stopping and some have even said that they grew more hair. Perhaps I have developed an increased sensitivity to DHT due to years of Propecia use, or perhaps my loss is just progressing. I stopped the drug toward the end of last year, probably around September. I was off for about three months. This resulted in increased shedding and the progression of miniaturization throughout my entire scalp. I started taking it again at the beginning of the year 2010 and slowly recovered some lost ground. Side effects seem to vary in intensity, which seem to be aggravated when my health declines.

You say you have experienced “a sustained level of success” can you elaborate? Have you maintained since stopping, have you gained back some lost ground? I have noticed that the drug route produces inconsistent results. I have seen many cycles of shedding and growth over the last ten years. What worries me is that for the first six years I was cycling up, but the last three or four have been cycling down. There is new hair growth but it comes in thinner and weaker. I have probably lost about 60% of my density in a NW4 pattern. It’s still fully covered but there is no way to compare the quality and coverage to 2006 levels. My hair looked like a 20 year old back then. I am almost sure that the increased loss is related to a decline in health over the last few years. That’s why I joined this forum and that’s why I have been taking all of these supplements over the last couple of years.

I have tried the natural route and have been on everything on your regimen list and then some. Nothing seems to help except for the drug. Even that is not that affective anymore. My next step is to consult with a hair transplant doc to see what he can do for me. I may add some density to my hairline, temples and crown.
Thanks for the input.

You say you believe you have an increased sensitivity to DHT. This could very well be due in part to your elevated estradiol levels. I firmly believe that having high estradiol makes androgens more potent to a certain extent. Of course if it gets high enough it just over powers them and sensitivity becomes irrelevant. You may want to try lowering your estradiol levels. DIM would be a very good complement to finasteride (more so than soy isoflvavones because it doesn't also inhibt 5ar2) since it increases estradiol metabolism and increases the 2hydroxy estrogens.

I've been taking BioDIM for about two months now, too short of a time for results. I've noticed a little less belly fat, so maybe it's working. I take 100mg/day. How much do you take, if any?

It depends on the brand. If i recall correctly the bio response dim (the patented one) only contains 25% actual DIM so I took 4 to get a full 100 mg of DIM.

Thanks Baller - I'll keep taking the DIM for another six months. Hopefully it will help. They key for me seems to be alcohol, or rather the avoidance of alcohol. My hair takes a hit every time I over indulge.

Hairseeker,

DHT blockers would temporarily slow/stop my hair loss, and on occasion provide some good regrowth (especially when I was younger), but this was never for a prolonged period of time, as my body would soon adjust to said herb, rendering it ineffective. And it was very disconcerting, because I was sure that this time I found the right DHT blocker supplement(s) to stop my hair loss, only to be disappointed a month or two later.

Conversely, by "sustained level of success," I mean that I have been able to stop my hair loss, experience thin regrowth in the temple and crown area, and maintain what I have for two and 1/2 years now.

Sure, there are places that I wouldn't mind having thickened up some. But I try to focus more on the fact that my hair loss has stopped, because this, itself, is an accomplishment.

The Natural,

I agree with regard to DHT blockers slowing down, but in my case reducing DHT slows the loss and promotes some growth. As I've said before, I've lost ground every time I've stopped.

Stopping the loss and maintaining for 2.5 years can be considered success. If I had been able to do that 2.5 years ago, I would be in very good shape right now.

The natural approach in addition to propecia has not helped me maintain. It just slowed the process. I guess all I can do is continue working on my health and hope for the best.

I wish you continued success!

Hairseeker - I appreciate your kind words of encouragement. This forum and its members have helped me a lot. My advice would be to research and experiment; then be patient, because it does take time to find that right combination of natural supplements for you.

I wish you the best,
TN

They're not bad for hair. Soy along with a whole food diet is why Asians traditionally don't bald until late in life. Also if you're going to use EGCG along with soy isoflavones I would suggest only drinking green tea as taking large amounts of EGCG via a concentrated supplement can inhibit aromatase too much which will in turn increase DHT.

How about taking normal green tea extract with isoflavones instead of pure EGCG would that be ok? I dont have time to make green tea every day.