PH Phytogen vs. ainterol P. Mirifica

There is just 80 mg P. Mirifica in Solgars product but 500 mg in Ainterol's.

I am wondering if Ainterols 500 mg capsule P. Mirifica may be too much for male use?

IH recommend Solgars maybe it is safer to stick with that one.

IH has recommended Solgar's since that is what he is familiar with, not because he prefers one over the other.

The Solgar is not pure, it has other stuff in it as well, which is not a good thing from what I've learned through Ainterol. Considering I've been on Ainterol's product for some time now with nothing but positives to report, the dosage definitely isn't the problem. Also, similar dosages have been used for males for centuries in Thailand!

I used Solgar's product for a month, and didn't find much of a difference between taking or not taking it to be honest.

Nidhogge, what was the dosage, a single capsule every second day for 2 weeks?

I second Nidhogge, there are very few P. Mirifica products on the market. I do like that the Solgar product is standardized for the active ingredient miroestrol, yet the higher mg count of the other product is likely to have plenty of it.

Nidhogge, do they have a non-ebay source for the stuff?

Caustic, you dont trust the ebay source?

It is shipped from Thailand.

They have a site at http://www.ainterol.net/ but do not answer email and the form is broken.

nidhogge wrote:IH has recommended Solgar's since that is what he is familiar with, not because he prefers one over the other.

The Solgar is not pure, it has other stuff in it as well, which is not a good thing from what I've learned through Ainterol. Considering I've been on Ainterol's product for some time now with nothing but positives to report, the dosage definitely isn't the problem. Also, similar dosages have been used for males for centuries in Thailand!

I used Solgar's product for a month, and didn't find much of a difference between taking or not taking it to be honest.

Nid,

Rather than e-mail you back, I thought I'd ask here so others can benefit: Can you list the positives you refer to? I've looked through these pages and cannot find anything that specifically mentions the benefits of PM. And, to be clear, you are recommending this along side rather than instead of 7-HMR, right?

Since I've been on 7HMR for many months now, and PM for less than 1/2 that time, then yep--recommending alongside.

It's basically, to me, like Propecia without the sides. You experience less fallout, better skin, imo you preserve gains better in the gym and keep weight off more efficiently as well. It just gives you a very good internal hormonal environment.

Ainterol has this big ticketing system that their customers get access to, and they are VERY responsive and can tell you all about how pure their stuff is, what it's standardized to, dosage, etc.

The dosage is:

First 2 weeks

- 1 tab every other day

Next 4 weeks

- 1 tab 30 min. before breakfast, 1 tab before bed, every other day

Thereafter...

- 1 tab 30 min. before breakfast, 1 tab before bed, every day

Thanks cpio & Nidhogge for the details.

Since I'm already on fin, would you still recommend the addition of 7HMR along with PM?

"Balancing hormones" is pretty vague. Is there any direct evidence on how this product benefits hair? Does it have a similar actions as 7-HMR?

Joejoe, what do you mean by "direct evidence"? Studies done in regard to MPB? I doubt it, like it is the
case with Ecklonia cava it is being marketed towards an exact niche. But it's uses are of course not limited to
those it is marketed for.

PM may be more powerful than HMR. It is an adaptogen like maca and thus probably more able to balance (tune up or down).

cpio wrote:Joejoe, what do you mean by "direct evidence"? Studies done in regard to MPB? I doubt it, like it is the
case with Ecklonia cava it is being marketed towards an exact niche. But it's uses are of course not limited to
those it is marketed for.

PM may be more powerful than HMR. It is an adaptogen like maca and thus probably more able to balance (tune up or down).

I don't think he is asking for studies pertaining to MPB, but just some evidence or explanation as to how it works to regulate the hormones for men. Actually, the paper I just posted in the thread on estrogen metabolism may hold a clue.

EIC, evidence is normally understood as soemething deriving from observation and experience, ("videre" in latin means "to see"), an explanation is not evidence.

cpio wrote:EIC, evidence is normally understood as soemething deriving from observation and experience, ("videre" in latin means "to see"), an explanation is not evidence.

My earlier post asked for "evidence OR evidence." "Or" indicates that either among two distinct possibilities will suffice.

EIC wrote:

cpio wrote:Joejoe, what do you mean by "direct evidence"? Studies done in regard to MPB? I doubt it, like it is the
case with Ecklonia cava it is being marketed towards an exact niche. But it's uses are of course not limited to
those it is marketed for.

PM may be more powerful than HMR. It is an adaptogen like maca and thus probably more able to balance (tune up or down).

I don't think he is asking for studies pertaining to MPB, but just some evidence or explanation as to how it works to regulate the hormones for men. Actually, the paper I just posted in the thread on estrogen metabolism may hold a clue.

Bingo. A lot of this stuff is too expensive to run out and grab without sufficient evidence to support it. Also I've had problems in the past with low estrogen so I'm very weary of using AI's and such. Still love to read about em though

Maybe one day I'll get to use 7-HMR again.

I've just dropped 7-HMR after at least a solid year of using it. Currently, my thinking is that I should just leave things well-enough alone in the hormone department. But my curiosity is prime. So it looks like I will be ordering PM on Tues.

Cpio--
Are you using the Solgar product, or the one off ebay?
thanks.

EIC wrote:


My earlier post asked for "evidence OR evidence." "Or" indicates that either among two distinct possibilities will suffice.

I should have said "evidence OR explanation." Either will satisfy my (and, I think, Joejoe's) curiosity.

I think it will be interesting to eventually get a consensus on what is the best in terms of hormone balancing.

Maca is also worthy of consideration as a replacement for 7-HMR. I've been using both of them for a while now. I've used two species of Kudzu in the past, but net yet the Thai Kudzu. But it seems very impressive.

On a side note (and will mention this in another thread) I visited some of my relatives this weekend and they noticed my hair is thicker than before. Funny thing is, the last time I saw them, they said the same thing. I am wondering if my Lecithin experiment is returning dividends. I've been on it for a solid 6-months to date.

I dont have a need for evidence. Folk medicine traditions alone is enough to make me want to try it.

I also think that folk medicine traditions is what have spurred the inititiative of many studies. It is highly unlikely
something would have survived as a food source or a medicine unless it has something to offer.

Sometimes your own experience is the best evidence you can get.

Joejoebaggins wrote:

EIC wrote:

cpio wrote:Joejoe, what do you mean by "direct evidence"? Studies done in regard to MPB? I doubt it, like it is the
case with Ecklonia cava it is being marketed towards an exact niche. But it's uses are of course not limited to
those it is marketed for.

PM may be more powerful than HMR. It is an adaptogen like maca and thus probably more able to balance (tune up or down).

I don't think he is asking for studies pertaining to MPB, but just some evidence or explanation as to how it works to regulate the hormones for men. Actually, the paper I just posted in the thread on estrogen metabolism may hold a clue.

Bingo. A lot of this stuff is too expensive to run out and grab without sufficient evidence to support it. Also I've had problems in the past with low estrogen so I'm very weary of using AI's and such. Still love to read about em though

Maybe one day I'll get to use 7-HMR again.

Gibson, I am using the Ainterol one, from the "ainterol" ebay seller.

cpio wrote:I dont have a need for evidence. Folk medicine traditions alone is enough to make me want to try it.

I also think that folk medicine traditions is what have spurred the inititiative of many studies. It is highly unlikely
something would have survived as a food source or a medicine unless it has something to offer.

Sometimes your own experience is the best evidence you can get.

Joejoebaggins wrote:

EIC wrote:

cpio wrote:Joejoe, what do you mean by "direct evidence"? Studies done in regard to MPB? I doubt it, like it is the
case with Ecklonia cava it is being marketed towards an exact niche. But it's uses are of course not limited to
those it is marketed for.

PM may be more powerful than HMR. It is an adaptogen like maca and thus probably more able to balance (tune up or down).

I don't think he is asking for studies pertaining to MPB, but just some evidence or explanation as to how it works to regulate the hormones for men. Actually, the paper I just posted in the thread on estrogen metabolism may hold a clue.

Bingo. A lot of this stuff is too expensive to run out and grab without sufficient evidence to support it. Also I've had problems in the past with low estrogen so I'm very weary of using AI's and such. Still love to read about em though

Maybe one day I'll get to use 7-HMR again.

All of us are scientists. If you're girlfriend is cheating on you, you want some kind of evidence to confirm your predictions. If a new kind of yogurt comes out and claims that it will make you invisible, I bet you would want some kind of confirmation that "invisi-gurt" actually worked.

If a young man with low estrogen (I know this is rare) starts taking a "folk remedy" that is an aromatase inhibitor, it is going to make the gentleman feel like shit and compound the problem. I'm up for experimenting on myself just like everyone else, but I need a roadmap in this. The fact that something has been used for 143,234 years by some ancient people means nothing to me if it doesn't jive with my current bloodwork.

Joejoebaggins wrote:

If a young man with low estrogen (I know this is rare) starts taking a "folk remedy" that is an aromatase inhibitor, it is going to make the gentleman feel like shit and compound the problem. I'm up for experimenting on myself just like everyone else, but I need a roadmap in this. The fact that something has been used for 143,234 years by some ancient people means nothing to me if it doesn't jive with my current bloodwork.

If I remember from other boards, your E2 is low from pharm-grade AIs, right? To be fair, 7-HMR and PM are phytoestrogens. I'm not sure PM has anti-aromatase activity; 7-HMR does, but it is quite weak. But both contribute the favorable type of estrogens to the body. In that way, they may actually be the thing you need if you are suffering from low estrogen.

I think the key with all of this is not to think estrogen vs. testosterone, but TYPES of estrogen. I think it is probably not wise to mess with AIs unless you are taking lots of exogenous testosterone. Instead, I think the rest of us could benefit from a clean-running liver, which keeps the good E and gets rid of the bad E; keeping a lid on cortisol; and keeping a lid on insulin. That should be all we need for great physiques and good hair.

EIC wrote:

If I remember from other boards, your E2 is low from pharm-grade AIs, right? To be fair, 7-HMR and PM are phytoestrogens. I'm not sure PM has anti-aromatase activity; 7-HMR does, but it is quite weak. But both contribute the favorable type of estrogens to the body. In that way, they may actually be the thing you need if you are suffering from low estrogen.

I think the key with all of this is not to think estrogen vs. testosterone, but TYPES of estrogen. I think it is probably not wise to mess with AIs unless you are taking lots of exogenous testosterone. Instead, I think the rest of us could benefit from a clean-running liver, which keeps the good E and gets rid of the bad E; keeping a lid on cortisol; and keeping a lid on insulin. That should be all we need for great physiques and good hair.

To be honest I'm not sure why I still have low E's. My quack doctor put me on Arimidex a year ago for about 3 weeks because of a lab error on a Labcorp test that said my E2 was in the 50's...........

After visiting Dr. John in Michigan and being off Adex for a period of months each Rhein test showed my low E's coming up, but still low. Dr. John didn't ever have a straight answere for me. My theory is that biounavailable copper & candida were behind the low E's, low serum copper=low estrogen.

But anyways yeah, my story is not in any way the normal guy with MPB. And I think you hit the nail on the head with this EIC.

Instead, I think the rest of us could benefit from a clean-running liver, which keeps the good E and gets rid of the bad E; keeping a lid on cortisol; and keeping a lid on insulin. That should be all we need for great physiques and good hair.

Joejoebaggins - This type of Kudzu has a molecule very similar--virtually identical to the "good" estrogen estriol, which is called Miroestrol. This effects the estrogen receptors as a regulator--when reverses of estrogen are low, it allows more estrogenic activity, and if estrogen is too high, it reduces the flow.

CausticSymmetry wrote:Joejoebaggins - This type of Kudzu has a molecule very similar--virtually identical to the "good" estrogen estriol, which is called Miroestrol. This effects the estrogen receptors as a regulator--when reverses of estrogen are low, it allows more estrogenic activity, and if estrogen is too high, it reduces the flow.

It seems more and more that lignans, PM, and DIM all have somewhat overlapping functions. Doing them all at the same time would be somewhat costly and may be too much of a good thing. Lignans seem quite inexpensive (whether flax or 7-HMR), so those get the nod for those of us who can tolerate them. If one were to add PM instead of DIM, do you think you'd have all the basis covered? As a general matter, I prefer to use herbs and natural stuff rather than synthetic preparations anyway.