my hairline is getting crazy!

How are you guys doing on the papain? I got a bromelain/papain combo cap, but I think I have to stop due to rapid papain sides.

GIBSON: Any thoughts or ideas? How are you doing?

I'm going to try just hyalauronic acid for now topically and see if that keeps things going until I can figure it out. I am taking brewer's yeast which was working great until the papain kicked in, so I am going to stick with that as daily internal.

thanks guys

what papain sides are you experiencing?

Has anyone else noticed increased itching of the scalp?

It seems that the HA/papain combo is pretty harsh on the skin. My forehead started peeling, and a couple little pieces of papain actually became stuck in my skin like they had eaten into it!

I have been using the HA serum and not capsules, so I may be getting a lot higher concentration?

whip, your the first ive read on here that have had any sides on papain. But your taking it internally right?

Jharsh, i read that the papain shouldnt be used on the face. Alltho i think ill be putting it on where my original hairline was as there is probably alot more fibrosis and dead skin around that area.


Has anyone noticed that they cant get a tan where there hair/hairline use to be?
My face goes pretty brown in summer but where i have thinned (temples) it just stays a pasty white or burns.




Just a quick idea also on why i think the papain could work....


Papain is said to be very good for wound healing. Im guessing because it keep the wound open for longer.
I think for hair to regrow, the skin has to be healing in a wounded state for a long time so it can gather the nutrients to build the papilla's again.

If it heals too fast than the fibrotic tissue etc will just grow back over the area.

I think the key is to keep the inflammation away while the wound is healing for as long as possible. (weeks at a guess, like a hair transplant takes a while to heal).

Ive read that papain can keep the scalp very cool and extend healing time. Dont ask me where i read it. (could have been in this thread) but i did read it somewhere.

Anyway thats my take on it.

Using topically, but for me I used to get the same sides from topical saw p and similar topicals over the years and stopped those also. Maybe too much systemic absorption in my case.

Haven't noticed any itching with this topical though.

Cuebreeze,

have you used topical mag oil/water combo? The reason is I spray it on my arms and legs like some guys are doing and noticed that my arms get tan easily, and this might have to do with the topical magnesium oil spray, it seems to work really fast and my arms are still tan from brief sun exposure.

Hey guys,
Don't want to dampen everyone's excitement about papain (especially with everyone rushing out to order it) but something wierd and unpleasant has happened in the last 24 hours. My hair has started shedding dramatically and it all looks thin and sickly. Scalp feels good but hair looks like shit. Not sure what has caused this. I am going to take a few days off the routine to see what happens.

as for the itching, Jharsh, I read somewhere that papain can be aggravating to the scalp, particularly for those with allergies to latex.

Anyway I'll get back to you all when I get this sorted out.

you could be seeing all your thin/fine hair being replaced by new growth. If something was to really regrow hair than would you expect it to shed off the whispy hairs that were still hanging on. Stay positive huli but thanks for the post.

Its intresting that your scalp feels good. I think the scalp is more important than the hair itself in kicking off hairgrowth (obviously) so it could be good.


Is all your hair going thin? what about the sides of the head? Is papain stopping scalp itch?

We are basically trying to break up fibrotic tissue and wash away dead skin cells with papain yea?
So maybe its all been broken up, but still in the scalp. I think dermarolling mite be beneficial with this but risky also as its strong stuff.

Stay positive and remember, its allways darkest before the dawn. Good luck mate. Any more details would be great.

whip.... what sides are you talking about that you also had on saw palmetto. Sexual sides from topically using?? what sides was papain giving you?

Hi cue, the sides I mainly experience is I start to balloon up rapidly, this happened with Saw P and some other topicals and internals. I believe the sides are from an Est/Test ratio imbalance.

For me, it's usually anything that works pro-T starts to send the hair to crapsville, so it's a trade-off.

My thought is that papain has some Est qualities and that also it's a strong wound healer/irritant.

So it seems "scalp debridement" is part of the puzzle in all this, which is why some were taking bromelain also. Not sure on bromelain topically at this point though, but I know it doesn't have Est properties.

huli

exactly the same thing happened to me - i know it's a very unpleaseant feeling - i was very desperate and lowered the frequency of using the topical

that's the worst thing about treatments since we do not know if the shed means that the regimen is working or if it has a negative impact

can't say which one is it in your case but before my regrowth i went through a horrible shed (lookde like my hair went thinner) and then suddenly (2 weeks later) all the new tiny hair growing

also i do not know how you mix the papain but my mix was quite weak, papain is very strong, for anyone who wants to try it, do not put too much of it into the mix

prague... what level of hairloss were you at before the papain topical? Did the shed happen fast? I think the shed will be a good things. Hows your progress now anyway. Still getting new hair popping up?

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Whip--

Yeah, I was able to ascertain some estrogen effects pretty quickly, which is why I switched to bromelain. I've also made similar observations about my hair when boosting testosterone. All said, i think our observations on e and t closely match.

Off topic, I am currently becoming a huge fan of resveratrol to keep e in check. I'm taking close to a gram daily. I really missed the power of the grape since dropping wine, getting on the wagon.. Resveratrol, I think may buck our observations and prove to help hair and lower e.

Prague, Huli--

Thanks for the updates. I also reached a point where I asked myself if I was doing more harm than good. It seems I have shed a lot. But I also see what seems to be underlying vellus hairs. This is both a concern and encouraging, as I am weary that it could be good hair miniturizing. That said, Prague, I am encouraged by your post and will continue, but scale bake to three times a week.

Also, i think bromelain is stronger than papain and an overnight application is too excessive. Currently, I don't leave it on for more than an hour, usually much less. This is in line with hapyman's warning.

If the scalp feels healthy, the shed is a positive thing even if the hair look sickly, that is my experience twice.

cpio

I totally agree with you, another indicator might be your skin - that's why I apply the topicals to my face too to see the immediate reaction. Papain/HA is doing wonders for my skin so there was a big chance it would be good for my hair too.

Honestly I think there's very few thing that aggravate your hairloss when applied topically.

I went through a BIG shed. The worst I've ever experienced. I got very desperate and dropped the mix for a couple of days. Then I restarted and it was the best choice I've done for my hair. I think that the better and faster a remedy works, the bigger is the shed. Papain should work very fast since it works on a different basis. Since it changes the scalp condition, the hair previously surrounded by a hardened skin with low nutrition and already attacked gets into a healthy environment with increased bloodflow, etc - logically the hair has to get out. That's why the shed id so big in my opinion.

anyway a shed always precedes a regrowth - that's one more bad thing in this battle and makes in even more dificult to find a remedy

my hair is in a great shape right now - after the shed (a really big one) I saw some vellus hair rushing out and then my hair (2-3 months after i started) my hair started getting really strong (my front was quite curly and thin before, i could'n do any hairstyle when it was longer than 3-4 cm) and suddenly the hair was more straight, stronger and disciplined, i could comb it the way i wanted and it stayed like that which was impossible before. Some 2 months ago the ne tiny hair started getting darker and stonger - not all of them but one by one - this phase takes some time and today still one half of my new hair stays thin and blond but the optical effect is great

cuberbreeze
i started loosing my hair at around the age of 22 - my hair in temples got very thin

i started fighting my hairloss at around the age of 25 when i got some first comments on my temples and a crown which really scared me

after some experiments i discovered the IH's pages and with a slightly modified top 6 and a change of my diet my hairloss stopped for some time slightly

then i discovered some new spplements (maca, colostrum, kudzu, damiana, mucuna) and this more antiestrogenic approach with a new diet (warrior diet) really helped my hair. The problem was I was taking at around 30-40 pills per day which you can't when travelling as i did and also it was difficult to say what really helped (i think it was maca).

My discipline dropped (and the effect of the supplements too maybe) and i experience some new hairloss and had to act. A year ago a colleague of mine described me as "the half balding guy" and i really was approaching NW3 as i was at 2006/beginning 2007. Now i'm a solid NW 1 with no signs of hairloss

Hey Prague,

Do you feel that DSMO is necessary / playing a role. I just wondered if you might be seeing Mr OZ like effects?

This papain treatment is the first treatment where I have felt that mpb related recovery was occuring, rather than just advanced hair optimisation.

I'm not sure if you have read my wounding experiments, but I can say that I am able to grow hair, even on bald spots, using sandpaper, garlic, castor oil and aloe vera. However in my line of work, the wounding just won't work due to visibilty - I may well try my recovery topical along with papain.

Hardly scientific, I know!

BTW, did you use to use Progesterone on your temples, or am I getting confused?

gbp2000

i do not think DMSO is neccessary; the wounding + papain should be a great combinationin my opinion

i was using progesterone cream but not to the temples (IH made some bad experience) - i still have some at home and was thinking during my big shed that if nothing works i would mix it with dutasteride and apply it topically to the temples - i've never done it but it would be my last step if nothing works

I just need to source the ingredients in the UK, and I will begin a split test, one side using my recovery topical and minor wounding, and the other with all of that plus papain.

One other question Prague, do you feel that any of your approaches (eg Maca, Papain) have helped increase shaft thickness? I know the new hairs generated by my wounding + topical are far thicker for the first few months, than any hairs anywhere on my head. As they age, they go back to my usual thin cuticle....

i think maca have helped me in this aspect but again it is quite difficult to say since i started taking in when living in Singapore and I can date my first success to this period. It is quite important to note that i started my WD there and was on a gluten free diet there. Also was on curcumin/resveratol since some time - now it's 3 years (i add curcuma to my food and drink red wine every day)

The supplements approach is very interesting one but one weak point is that as you drop the supplements it usually/i would say always gets to the previous state. This reflexion made me think also of the fact that an imortant aspect when fighting MPB is the "negative" approach - which is what we shouldn't eat/do since the recidive effect might be limited to zero. We all agree on sugar, refined foods, pesticides, hormones but there is more to be done. Lectins, gluten, etc

The supplements i really like are: maca, kudzu, colostrum, l glutamine, damiana, ashwaganda, mucuna pruriens, ALA/ACL, biotin

my internal approach at this time is the supplements listed above plus i really put accent to proteolytic enzymes, colon, leaky gut

i made a cure of green clay and ACV and papain/bromelain, serrapaptase, rutin and try to experiment in this way - i really feel this is a way to go

Thanks, Prague, for your posts which put the shedding in perspective. How long after beginning papain did you start to experience your big shed? I figure for me it has been about 3 weeks. Initially hair looked and felt healthier (almost immediately) - thicker and stronger, now it is looking thin and shedding like crazy. My scalp does feel better - most noticeably it feels more supple/flexible. The shedding is tough to cope with though. I have areas that are, for the first time ever, becoming see through (particularly one part of my crown and part of the vertex). I am honeslty considering accepting the loss and buzzing it all down to a 1 or less but continuing to apply the topical in hopes that it kicks in like for Prague.

I do have a bunch of what appear to be vellus hair although like Gibson I sometimes wonder if in fact they are miniaturized hairs on their way out. At my hairline I sometimes think some of them are turning darker and thickening but I really can't say for sure and may be imagining it.

I do believe I am committed to this treatment at this point though. I feel stopping now might be the worst thing as it might stop/slow the shedding but then I'd maybe not see the hair grow back. I'll keep you posted. I will say for those considering this that it takes a good deal of nerve to go through the shed. I am struggling with it.

totally hearing you huli. I should be starting my topical this week if it arrives, so im taking in every word you say. Dont give up mate. Im also thinking about the shave. If this can really work than a shave mite be better in the long run.

Also when you say scalp feels better...... has it reduced itch? inflammation etc?


Id also like to hear some views on wounding with papain. How could we go by this? Dermaroller? or peel?
Does anyone know how safe it will be wounding with papain?

My guess would be to dermaroll or scalp peel before bed than apply papain topical. This should help loosen up all the crap that papain eliminates than something like bentonite clay could be used the following morning to really flush it all out.

Also papain is suppose to extend the wounding time, so this longer wounding period (with all the crap flushed out). This being said, when the scalp is wounded, the body sends growth signals so this would be a perfect time for the scalp to regenerate right? Im thinking the longer the wound can stay clean and filled with the right nutrients, that would be the better the hair can regenerate.

Thats just a little theory of mine but maybe one of you guys has a better grip on how we can wound and papain.

huli

i know how you feel. In mu case it was the same - two weeks great and a big shed (i do not count the hair but i got so thin that i was thinking it has to be the papain), big big depression, went two nights non-stop searching on the internet without sleeping, i finally (and for the first time in my life) accepted the hairloss. I really dropped the mix for a couple of days and then restarted to see what happens thinking this is my only chance. The shed was really big. It looked like I've lost half of my hair.

it didn't last so long, 2 weeks later it was slightly better and 3-4 weeks later my hair was as when i started. And then it started. Strong hair, i couldn't believe it! i looked closer and I saw the vellus (never happened to me before) - the good thing about the shed was that i knew this is new tiny vellus hair and not the old thinning one. It takes long time (2months for me) that the vellus turns into terminal hair. But together with the rest of the hair that got stronger plus the new tiny vellus the optical effect is great. Now i would say 50% of my new hair is still thinner but it turns darker and stronger

unfortunately i can't say if your experience is mirroring mine but there's a big chance it is, i'm really crossing fingers for you!

I've noticed that if I pass a threshold with bromelain, use it a lot, my hair starts to feel weak and look thin/hair sheds. For instance, yesterday I used it after not using it for three days and after using I had a great hair day. This got me excited, so of course i used it again this morning, and the result was that I started feeling a bit of the effect that made me back-off in the first place. Seems like EOD for about twenty minutes may be the sweet spot for me. But I really haven't been at this too long, so i'm not sure.

gibson.... are you leaving your bromelain topical on for 20 mins and huli and prague are leaving papain on over night?

Can you explain why also. Isnt papain stronger? which would mean bromelain would want to be left on longer?

Ill be starting this week so i just wanna make sure im confident in my approach.

I mite also shave down to the que ball and photo my progress.

Hey Cue, thanks for the support, bud. Yes, itching is dramatically down. I really can't be sure about inflammation as it is so hard to tell. Inflammation can be at the level of the follicle and not visible from the surface, even with the microscope. It looks good right now with the microscope, pretty much like the rest of my scalp but with less hair.

My understanding is the the bromelain is a little stronger and that is sort of what I felt when trying it. I have never left it on over night. The papain I feel comfortable leaving on overnight.

Gibson, that is interesting how you feel overdoing it affects hair quality. That may be part of what I am seeing.

Prague, thanks man, I really appreciate you taking the time to help us through this. Your description of how you felt in your shed is exactly the way I feel now. Hopefully I can pull out of it like you did and see similar success. There are no guarantees but you are leaving me hopeful.

Cue, I may buzz it down tomorrow. It will certainly be easier to apply topicals and as well it will be easier to get ready in the morning before leaving the house. I really have little desire to hide my hair loss. Once it gets to a point where it's visible to others I am going to just buzz it down and get on with life. Of course I'll continue the fight but it will be a lot easier to do it that way than worried about what my hair is looking like while doing it. I think maybe I've even impeded my progress before by not taking certain steps (applying topicals in the a.m., etc) because it's too hard to look presentable after doing so. Anyway, whatever I'll let you know.

Prague, again, you are a legend. Helping us out when you could have easily moved on and enjoyed your success is very much appreciated.

huli,

FWIW, I've been recently been using bromelain/quercitin mixed with emu oil as a carrier oil ... I was hoping that there would be some sort of synergy effect with the bromelain/quercetin. Emu oil I was hoping would help give systemic results which I believe it mildly does.

Anyway, based on my very brief results I really don't see how bromelain could cause a negative shed unless there is some massive inflammation going on in your scalp. The less scalp inflammation you have, the more likely you are not to get a negative shed, IMHO.


But with that said, keep in mind that my scalp is in near 100% condition and that I can stop and start my hair loss at will so you might want to take that info with a grain of salt. You see, instead of opting to spend thousands of dollars on a hair transplant I've been trialing as many hair loss remedies and supplements the past year to get as much regrowth as possible. My impression of the bromelain is that it's supercharged nioxin scalp renew on steroids ... I could see how this could work for people. I'm not sure what my results will be like since I'm been using LLLT for almost 2 years and it may have a similiar affect. I have taken before pictures and I'll post them here if I do get regrowth though.