compiling a list of theories for Male Pattern Baldness

Not most, but some systems are. It doesn't explain full connection with everything else they're just bits. I might make a cohesive document but that's a shitload of work, more than people realize. There's enough material on this that someone could make Phd out of it.

Keanoseg wrote:someone could make Phd out of it.

Absolutely true point. Kind of frames how much time and dedication this type of research requires, and it sure as hell isn't going toward a degree.

What about sloped forehead ? I have noticed that people with receded hairline have often sloped forehead. But it is just an observation.

lamka wrote:What about sloped forehead ? I have noticed that people with receded hairline have often sloped forehead. But it is just an observation.

is that the ivory dome theory ? they may be connected, may be not

http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/hairloss/page2-featuredcontributors/the_mechanics_of_male_pattern_baldness

Keanoseg wrote:Well what do you think lol?

I actually don't know, because you never stated what your theory for hair loss was.

This was mentioned earlier, but I sure seem to notice a "more pronounces skull" in men with MPB... to my naked eye, it just appears like guys with advanced MPB have had skull expansion take place in both the upper forehead and vertex. Could be that some of us are hormonally pre-disposed to have skull expansion and/or susceptibility to calcification in those areas which contribute to MPB. Sometimes even looking and feeling my own skull, I feel like it has somewhat slightly expanded over the years, coinciding with my MPB, it honestly feels (tight scalp theory) that if my skull would just "condense" a small amount that it would take so much pressure off my scalp... Not sure what, if anything could be done to stop any sort of skull expansion though, lol, ugh. While I feel the expansion and/or expansion from calcification is barely noticeable to the naked eye, I feel that it definitely could be enough to tighten the scalp, reduce brown adipose tissue and create a hypoxic area which leads to MPB...

to : iuyyighghghgkh. Maybe yes, because if you can move your scalp, then your muscles are still working well (scalp exercise). It also depends on your head posture and chewing habits. You can see that jaw muscles are connected quite strongly with your sides of head. So it is important to chew more (hard gum etc.).

Thin in FL wrote:Not sure what, if anything could be done to stop any sort of skull expansion though, lol, ugh. While I feel the expansion and/or expansion from calcification is barely noticeable to the naked eye, I feel that it definitely could be enough to tighten the scalp, reduce brown adipose tissue and create a hypoxic area which leads to MPB...

Yes, thats why smokers have usually better hair. Because of the protection of brown adipose tissue and possibly restoring that. I posted tons of studies about smoking so you can read some.
Here :
Nicotine uncouples the mitochondria via UCP1 (uncoupling protein 1, or thermogenin) much like aspirin and saturated fat and modulates the production of reactive oxygen species. It upregulates BAT thermogensis (brown adipose tissue) and increases in BATt is associated with increased longevity. In rats nicotine protects the brain from experimentally induced brain injuries and from neurodegenerative diseases mainly by uncoupling the mitochondria and lowering free radicals. Nicotine also increases the resting metabolic rate. Nicotine and natural tobacco are promoters of longevity there is absolutely no doubt about that. Most industrial cigarettes will kill you though.

https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t10550-health-benefits-of-smoking

Detumescence Therapy just covers up the symptoms of hair loss, like so many therapies and cures for hair loss.

I prefer to get to the root cause. usually a deficiency or adrenal or metabolic problem. usually.

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:Detumescence Therapy just covers up the symptoms of hair loss, like so many therapies and cures for hair loss.

I prefer to get to the root cause. usually a deficiency or adrenal or metabolic problem. usually.

This. Regardless if it does work or not (most probably it does contribute for health), one would be a gambler going with this therapy for life...

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:Detumescence Therapy just covers up the symptoms of hair loss, like so many therapies and cures for hair loss.

I prefer to get to the root cause. usually a deficiency or adrenal or metabolic problem. usually.

The ability to move your scalp is not the detumescence therapy. It is a similar ability to move your hands. Something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48By0g9atZs . I believe that your frontalis muscles support your forehead bone.

Beebrox wrote:

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:Detumescence Therapy just covers up the symptoms of hair loss, like so many therapies and cures for hair loss.

I prefer to get to the root cause. usually a deficiency or adrenal or metabolic problem. usually.

This. Regardless if it does work or not (most probably it does contribute for health), one would be a gambler going with this therapy for life...

I don't think we have enough knowledge to say that. When we dig through this entire process on every level and if it turns out not to do anything (which is impossible) then we can dismiss it. Therefore, we can't. What we need is, a detumescence therapy study all over again, but this time with all the equipment needed to measure gene expression, growth factors, tissue formatting, skin biochemistry etc (good luck getting this equipment for a massage study). Then if all of that turns out to have negative effects on this, I, and all the other people will admit that all the results we are seeing are an illusion, and all of us are completely crazy and ready for a mental hospital. Until then, noone has any right imo to say that this doesn't work because it's the same as saying it works without even trying. If you meant by "gambling" that you can possibly do something bad doing this reasonably... no you can't. It's the same as massaing some other part of your body once or twice a day. If you meant by "gambling" that you aren't sure if it's enough to maintain/regrow hair, then you are somewhat right but it's still a speculation. From what I'm seeing, and from what I've been researching, I'd say that it's completely possible, and to any internal regime that you uptake, this would be beneficial.


Second of all, no matter how healthy or unhealthy one is, he will never lose ALL the hair he has. Just on the specific places. And there were already studies showing that absolutely all scalp follicles can go dormant if subjected to enough androgen stimulus. This, and many other reasons, is why, this isn't solely genetic, and this is why, this isn't solely nutritional. Also, my hair is way better than it ever was, so even if you don't have problems up there, this should make it even stronger and thicker. Letting alone overall health, this plays a huge role by local adression, if anyone can fully scientifically expand on why is the DT study an absolute hoax, please do so , by enveloping the areas which are in use here. Mechanical stimulaton = mechanobiology + biochemistry. Go ahead. As I said, for the absolute downright hardcore skeptics, we really do need a DT study with all the measurements I talked about above. No one's going to be happy otherwise.

Third of all, no one ever even disproved the botox study and the strap study. Most likely, because it's already out there, so you can't. And these were just let's say "tackling chronic hypoxia" let alone what effects that made on all the signaling pathways and the biochemistry itself. Then there's the derma roller study, with some growth factors measured. I really doubt people in those 3 studies, suddenly went on an underground mission of correcting all the health problems via 10 supplements and lifestyle, moreover in some studies, they wouldn't even have the time for them to start working, because they showed results in a short time. I think micro needling was only 12 weeks if I'm not mistaken. And in all of this, we didn't even get to the full story as in which a study would be conducted while doing something like DT and measuring absolutely everything. So skeptics have about the same worth of opinion here, as the people on the other side who are "trying to decieve them". Just that the other side is getting somewhere, bigger most atleast.

Keanoseg wrote:

Beebrox wrote:

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:Detumescence Therapy just covers up the symptoms of hair loss, like so many therapies and cures for hair loss.

I prefer to get to the root cause. usually a deficiency or adrenal or metabolic problem. usually.

This. Regardless if it does work or not (most probably it does contribute for health), one would be a gambler going with this therapy for life...

I don't think we have enough knowledge to say that. When we dig through this entire process on every level and if it turns out not to do anything (which is impossible) then we can dismiss it. Therefore, we can't. What we need is, a detumescence therapy study all over again, but this time with all the equipment needed to measure gene expression, growth factors, tissue formatting, skin biochemistry etc (good luck getting this equipment for a massage study). Then if all of that turns out to have negative effects on this, I, and all the other people will admit that all the results we are seeing are an illusion, and all of us are completely crazy and ready for a mental hospital. Until then, noone has any right imo to say that this doesn't work because it's the same as saying it works without even trying. If you meant by "gambling" that you can possibly do something bad doing this reasonably... no you can't. It's the same as massaing some other part of your body once or twice a day. If you meant by "gambling" that you aren't sure if it's enough to maintain/regrow hair, then you are somewhat right but it's still a speculation. From what I'm seeing, and from what I've been researching, I'd say that it's completely possible, and to any internal regime that you uptake, this would be beneficial.

I dont wish to take anything from you Keanoseg. As said, massage most probably has positive contributions for health. However it may not be enough to tackle hairloss in the longer run. This is where i see it as gambling. I'd like to see the study outcome with all the content you suggest as well. What ever approach is chosen as the only one, can be viewed as limited accces to all the possible sources that are influencing the condition. Taking place as many levels into equation as possible, should perform better. But at the end of the day, if one going nuts about it, one's life is most probably dedicated to hair loss only or at least ones reality is distorted a bit.

''Well, grandchildren, it was when i started to lose hair. From then on, i massaged my scalp, doing DT. I massaged it in my car, my cabinet, even when i've met your grandpa, i'd have to go to the bathroom for a quick scalp tension release... IT WORKED, until one day it didn't work anymore. I think i was already 45y old at that time. I think it was pizza we regularly ate with your grandpa, that saddened the story a bit...''

Not suggesting, your life is about it, but don't see it as a isolated practice that would produce extraordinary results in *everybody* and investment for your overall health. The same as with internals, but with internals you get a really cool systemic side effects. Really hope you have something extraordinary there, but being on this boards for too long to not finding out the truth about different manuals that start gaining attention of the wide crowd due extremely good hair results. Don't take me wrong, for some people they work extremely well (those (IMO) who improved their biology a bit already), including for minor re-growth. I got some reversal of vellus to terminals from vibro-massage with IR ''hammer massager'', but it was not worth it to sustain the habit, as i declined on other areas preforming exercise routine as a primarly goal...I think circulatory issues of mine have been much better now after i addressed some potential and actual sources of inflammation. It might be totally different for you, and we should wait for your NW0...

Well that's a tad bit unnecessary there Beebrox, don't you think. That post was really weird. I'm doing this 15 minutes daily as I previously stated, nor am I going nuts about anything. What doesn't make sense, is that people have a selected opinion about this (well so have I to an extent) but speculating absolutely everything. First of all, why would it stop working suddenly lol? Second of all, read the third paragraph in my previous post and disprove that, than am I only going to consider anything you say about this to the same level you take my words, a.k.a with a grain of salt. I am myself so I don't have to take anything from myself with grain of salt, but I can see why you, and other people have to. It's pretty crazy, because this works for many people and I'm here trying to spread the word, but I end up being a shiller, a crazy guy obssessed with hair, a lier, a fraud, a scumbag etc. It's funny how much results I'm seeing from this without using anything else, and you know even I had to first lose that hair. But I guess there's no point arguing.

Yes, it can help with hair loss and regrow new hair.

But it is like minoxidil, in the way that

it just covers up the real cause for why you lost your hair.

What theory of hair loss does it solve ?

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:Yes, it can help with hair loss and regrow new hair.

But it is like minoxidil, in the way that

it just covers up the real cause for why you lost your hair.

Do you have a proof of what you're saying? How do you know that? Is it biased, is it unbiased, have you ever conducted a broad study elaborating on this? Or you follow a certain principle of health and lifestyle so you underline everything else?

And what is the real cause why you lost your hair? Do you think if you just take the supplements, all of your hair will regrow even after you correct all the glands and organs, without doing anything locally? Well good luck then sir, I know a faster way to do that. It's just that there's a lot of people out there, who take care and adress all the metabolic problems here, but still don't see their full heads of hair coming back as prior to losing any. And those people get this notion, that you have to be absolutely in tip top PERFECT health to even see any hear on your head, and are not allowed to do anything else. You don't need to be in perfect health to have your hair. If that was the case, not a single person would have any hair almost, and I see plenty of young and old men both with half heads of hair and with full heads of hair.

Keanoseg wrote:

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:Yes, it can help with hair loss and regrow new hair.

But it is like minoxidil, in the way that

it just covers up the real cause for why you lost your hair.

Do you have a proof of what you're saying? How do you know that? Is it biased, is it unbiased, have you ever conducted a broad study elaborating on this? Or you follow a certain principle of health and lifestyle so you underline everything else?

And what is the real cause why you lost your hair? Do you think if you just take the supplements, all of your hair will regrow even after you correct all the glands and organs, without doing anything locally? Well good luck then sir, I know a faster way to do that. It's just that there's a lot of people out there, who take care and adress all the metabolic problems here, but still don't see their full heads of hair coming back as prior to losing any. And those people get this notion, that you have to be absolutely in tip top PERFECT health to even see any hear on your head, and are not allowed to do anything else. You don't need to be in perfect health to have your hair. If that was the case, not a single person would have any hair almost, and I see plenty of young and old men both with half heads of hair and with full heads of hair.

Yes, I agree it is both a local problem and a whole body problem.

It is both.

Tackle it with both ways.

DT just sounds too gimmicky.

Sorry if i sounded offensive. I do think you have something, but also do think it may be not enough in long term battle if sources of inflammation are not addressed. Let's say gluten, metals, or systemic infection, diabetes, severe thyroid condition.... are not adressed and condition is worsening in time, as expected (we all die eventually). All those things, if what we call genetically predisposed, can influence outcome of life of hair folicle. Progression of these might make DT less and less useful. I should have said gradually, not suddenly.

This is what i've meant on ''stop working''. I have no scientific rationale to say it, as there is no any studies that would support you in epigenetic modification idea, but i somehow think it's safe to say you can't cure rheumatoid arthritis or osteoporosis just by long walks or such. With physical approach only.

If you search my posts, you will find i was big promotor of manuals back then, cause there were some results from them, including on myself. However i dont think human was evolved to DT his scalp to keep it covered with hair, but find act of eating - more in parallel with how we respond to inflammation, and find that act less obsessive (nuts/crazy) . I dont think you are crazy doing it, more than i was or so. It's worth a shot.

More to it - I feel really good after a workout or physical activity,  due to a fact i am sitting most of my days, so i give you all about physical part of it. I didn't know it takes you just 15 minutes. However different people, different scalps, different timings, different temperature, different calcification issues, different pathogens, etc, etc. It's highly speculative, dont you think?

I got to 2-3 using hammer massager if my body was in termoregulated state. The other time, i could vibrate my brain for 15 minutes, and i wasnt. What was missing? The thyroid. I still dont know why nobody (one or two exceptions, with out feedback) tried the method...

Happy it's working for you, and please let's not make a battle between the manuals and internals. Both have their roles. We are not a trees. And even trees and plants need airflow to benefit from interaction with gravity.

And let's say it also like this. You've passed the million dollar question that most of the crowd on such boads still have - if hair loss can be treated naturally.

iuyyighghghgkh wrote:Yes, I agree it is both a local problem and a whole body problem.

It is both.

Tackle it with both ways.

- The truth

DT just sounds too gimmicky.

And that is just your subjective opinion which you are allowed to have. But what else constructive or scientific does it offer? Gimmicky. Ok.

Then you have people like me who have been on a really healthy diet for 2+ years, DT for almost 8 months and no results.

Beebrox wrote:And let's say it also like this. You've passed the million dollar question that most of the crowd on such boads still have - if hair loss can be treated naturally.

If I understood this correctly, yes. It completely can. The only people that will tell you that it can't, are people that don't know otherwise because of lack of results and lack of knowledge, and most likely, the lack of any force of attraction towards "natural" solutions under which it would all part. Either them or the industry, and the latter will remain an obvious constant.

Sorry if i sounded offensive. I do think you have something, but also do think it may be not enough in long term battle if sources of inflammation are not addressed. Let's say gluten, metals, or systemic infection, diabetes, severe thyroid condition.... are not adressed and condition is worsening in time, as expected (we all die eventually). All those things, if what we call genetically predisposed, can influence outcome of life of hair folicle. Progression of these might make DT less and less useful. I should have said gradually, not suddenly.

Don't worry about it. And yes, one can hardly expect to regrow any hair in any way if he's practically dying. What I'm saying is, that you don't need to be in perfect health, but in good health, and DT should work well, in majority of the cases. Also, if the health situation is really that bad, I don't think that person should be even worried about hair loss in the first place, but more important things. What this might mean, is that some people will notice these things only because of hair loss instead of feeling totally non functional. However I don't think all the people start losing hair because they are totally wrecked internally, but it's some portion of the people for sure. In theory, if you remain in good health, DT's results shouldn't subside until old age, like anything else.
This should help regrow, thicken and strengthen hair, and maintain it like that. Just like you would do pullups and pushups even up to old age, and still be in great shape, maintaining what you were doing for a lifetime. If DT's results stop,then why wouldn't dietal or supplemental as well? You can't possibly offer me the evidence supporting that, nor it makes any sense.

This is what i've meant on ''stop working''. I have no scientific rationale to say it, as there is no any studies that would support you in epigenetic modification idea, but i somehow think it's safe to say you can't cure rheumatoid arthritis or osteoporosis just by long walks or such. With physical approach only.

Wrong, and why are you so sure? There are actually quite a big number of studies which show what cells do under mechanical forces, especially all the types of skin cells, considering proliferation,differentiation,regeneration, signalling changes, signalling inductions etc. Also papillary responses to mechanical forces and their individual upregulations/downregulations. There is certainly a big epigenetic factor here. It's just that we don't actually know the complete story yet. There are already cases of this which are studied, where by mechanical stimulation diabetes wounds heal, bones heal, scarless scar healing is achieved, and other types of injuries and tissue healing. Talking about stuff like shockwave therapies, massages etc. So the epigenetic factor is definitely on my side here.

If you search my posts, you will find i was big promotor of manuals back then, cause there were some results from them, including on myself. However i dont think human was evolved to DT his scalp to keep it covered with hair, but find act of eating - more in parallel with how we respond to inflammation, and find that act less obsessive (nuts/crazy) . I dont think you are crazy doing it, more than i was or so. It's worth a shot.

I don't think the human was evolved to do anything. The human evolved to survive but somehow we developed this complex system of critical and abstract thought which was more likelly because of anegdotal situations. Most likely shear luck here, and not really intended. Nevertheless, doing DT on your scalp isn't doing DT on your scalp. It's about producing a certain kind of changes and responses in your skin. As is with internals or anything else, if you purely target the scalp upon analysis here and what actually happens when balding/miniaturizing and having normal healthy hair. I don't think this is any more crazy than doing anything else as eating healthy and exercising. These are just terms. We can't compare these. Everything is individual here.

More to it - I feel really good after a workout or physical activity,  due to a fact i am sitting most of my days, so i give you all about physical part of it. I didn't know it takes you just 15 minutes. However different people, different scalps, different timings, different temperature, different calcification issues, different pathogens, etc, etc. It's highly speculative, dont you think?

Yes and no. No to should it do the same to one person and something else to other person. Yes to that every single person is different, and I think everyone should be in good health of course. I never said to anyone that they should start dying and do DT. What would even be the point of hair if you're gonna die in few months.

I got to 2-3 using hammer massager if my body was in termoregulated state. The other time, i could vibrate my brain for 15 minutes, and i wasnt. What was missing? The thyroid. I still dont know why nobody (one or two exceptions, with out feedback) tried the method...

I didn't know about it, but I'd like to learn more. I'm studying engineering so I'd be interested in that. Especially when it comes to how can it be applied to the body and health, since I doubt I'll ever be a space engineer.

Happy it's working for you, and please let's not make a battle between the manuals and internals. Both have their roles. We are not a trees. And even trees and plants need airflow to benefit from interaction with gravity.

I agree, and it's not my interest in any way. And thanks.

I think most pepole who are experiencing hairloss, have more severe health issues than they realize. Specially those balding very early in life. How early one experiences hairloss is also proportional with stress that it brings...

Hammer massager looks like these. If it has IR heaters, it should work faster...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Frankies-Deep-Tissue-2-Speed-Hammer-Massager-w-3-Interchangeable-Heads-Yellow-/271550108478?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f39a5d33e

If frequency can be adjusted this would be better. For manipulating the amplitude, towel or something similar of different thickness can be used instead. Placing it forward backward, on the scalp and temples can produce tingling sensation that corresponds with more blood flow to it...


If you can sum your research in one post, i'd be really glad to look to it with out reading too much content of DT thread.

Eating habits can be view as for nutrition cravings. It's natural response to what body needs.

Growdamnit wrote:Then you have people like me who have been on a really healthy diet for 2+ years, DT for almost 8 months and no results.

Okay.

I am glad you tried and stuck with it for that long.

Things do not work overnight.
But they damm will in 3-6 months.

Try something for 3-6 months, if you see no new hair, try something else.

That device - if it works it does way more than just improving blood flow. As for summarizing my research, I have big dificulties with this. I already sent my stuff to few high caliber researches out there but there's really so much here that they just looked at it and said it it's legit and reasonable, and said few words of their own, it was their field or adjacent to it. I wanted to get 102 to help me with this, but it's too much work honestly. I can't seem to find anyone who will go over absolutely everything here and help me connect the dots to try and make a model out of this. And this has to be done with person to person interraction. The best and simplest way to be to redo the DT study with all the instruments. And then again, it wouldn't be uploaded on ncbi and all the same questions we have now would repeat in the future on some other forum/place. In short, DT CAN absolutelly take care or help with everything regarding hair loss locally. As to the ratio of effectiveness regarding a big study amount pool of people, I have no answer but I could speculate, also , there's the DT study itself for people who want to play with the questions of conspiracies. Then there's the Freund study, strap study, derma roller study... etc. Then, there are plenty of people with anegdotal sightings, some of which even "invent" a technique of their own, like Tom Hagerty, and also people who share their stories, pictures and progress, like Maliniak, and his pool of people who are reporting results, same with Rob. Science or not. Anegdotal or not. I don't want to say anything but I could speculate easily, with quite a bag of science for sure. And as to what else would these changes do in the body, and what other signals would be sent to anywhere else, with cell to cell body-wide interaction in the body, I have no idea, and we are really way behind currently in knowledge here to speculate, but studies could be done about this for sure.

Growdamnit wrote:Then you have people like me who have been on a really healthy diet for 2+ years, DT for almost 8 months and no results.

You said you have no sebborheic dermatitis anymore (which by the way, should be incurable in the long run according to modern medicine), and you said your hair is thicker/stronger/healthier. This already, is what you could have gotten from propecia and minox and in pretty much the same time frame. How is that no results? You are misinterpreting this. You want to say you have no regrowth in the temples yet. Ok. We've talked about this before. It's not that DT + healthy lifestyle isn't working, it's just that you still didn't see regrowth specifically in the temples. This is the longest process of all and I have no answer to your particular case, but you can't say no results. This also works slow for me in the temples, it doesn't mean it's not working. Regrowth isn't the only thing that can tell you that this works, but that is the ultimate result to which we are trying to achieve.

iuyyighghghgkh  -  you can't really say anything about this, if you didn't try it properly for at least 6 months to a year, and if you have no scientific basis to disprove it either. The best basis people come up with, is just "this won't work", or "this won't adress anything", or "this removes the symptoms of metabolic problems", without actually knowing anything about it, not to mention some trolls around here. I mean, there are already people out there getting results from this that are laughing at these posts, and some people are even getting results without even knowing it, because they focused their minds onto only one thing but don't care about the entire process and science behind it, while any drug or anything else wouldn't get you results in faster time either, but all of that is not important I guess. Well that is pretty selective and non empirical. iuyyighghghgkh, what if you correct the metabolic problems, but your hair doesn't come back? What does then DT do?

I'll say it again. When someone deeply expands through mechanobiology + biochemistry as one process, why this won't work, and brings up measurable evidences, (since I'm already benefiting from DT in every possible aspect of scalp health, even though some don't believe me), is where I'll consider listening to those facts. You can even start with something as "simple" as disproving the Freund, strap, and derma roller studies and why they don't work, signalling pathway wise, biochemistry wise, everything wise. We'll even ignore the DT study here. Until then, I'll react to skeptics as a skeptic, while benefiting from all the results, which is just beautiful of a standpoint.

I'll also stop being here this often, and maybe chime in once a week. The only people left to convince to open up, are the ones that can't possibly do that. And they can't even provide anything constructive in the vice-versa story. So no point.