severe suffering on Iodine - please explain

Hey CS & Co.

I tried incorporating lugol's in my diet and was quite shocked to find myself experiencing some really terrible effects from it. I started with one drop and worked my way to about 4 drops over the course of 5 days. Right around the 5th day, I started experiencing severe throat pains, really horrible bone pain -- at the joints, feverishness, extreme brain fog -- to a point where I could not react to simple questions at work related meetings, feverishness, absolute worthlessness, and deathly malaise. I had read a bit about Bromide release / poisoning and it's effects to be expected during iodine supplementation, but I truly did not expect the effects to be so pronounced that I could not work for nearly a week!

I did the salt loading -- which possibly helped a bit but not a lot and drank lots of water etc. Now after almost 2 weeks of stopping iodine, I feel like I am back to normal.

So, I really want to understand what happened to me and what I ought to be doing next. I am expecting that many of you will associate this with Iodine deficiency (which is highly possible in my case) and advise me to get back on lugols.

But given what I experienced I am very very afraid to go back on it.  Please advice!

Why did you move up in dose so quickly?

I've read that with 12.5mg iodine daily it will take 1 year to reach 90% saturation. 50mg will take 3 months to reach 90% saturation.

Both will achieve the same result. One seems safer with less side effects.

Magnesium is a special component to add as well...

As Fut87 mentioned...increasing the initial dose should be quite slow.

100% of all people tested have very high levels of bromide.
There's also other halogens as well, such as fluoride.

In addition to the salt loading and magnesium, also incorporate lots of vitamin C as well.

Too much, too fast. Lugol's is strong stuff and going up a drop a day is a little insane IMO, especially if it's the first thing you're doing.

FWIW, it took me  quite a long time (months) before I was able to tolerate iodine.  I had to really clean up my diet, as well as chelate for heavy metals a couple of times.  Now I high dose (have taken as much as 100mg/day) and feel great.

Other important co-factors for iodine besides salt are magnesium as CS mentioned, and selenium.

However, you should only do what you're comfortable with.  If you're afraid of it, or not willing to research to help yourself, or perhaps do months of legwork on your body (correcting your diet, chelating, etc.) to produce a good result, don't do it. Just stay away from it.

Thank you guys for such a rapid response.

so, here's my plan: please advice if this makes sense.

1. Clean up my eating habits -- It is quite clean already - just need to stop the random croissants (1 every week!)
2. Start Lugol's slow: one horizontal drop every 2 days
3. Add magnesium (which one??), selenium, and Vit c (take 4 mg everyday already), and Salt loading -- any guidance here will be helpful
4. I already do HMD -- will continue doing so.

During this process, I will continue to monitor and adjust dosage.

BTW, what should we expect from this?

Thanks again.

deleted

Grave disease needs copper (and this disease does need iodine, as does Hashimoto's), the missing link is that most do not understand how to treat it holistically--that means treat the whole body.

Nothing is as simple as it appears.

For example going gluten free usually helps reduce antibodies in both Hashimoto's and Graves' (but not always).
If the NIS or CIS are not working, iodine will not work....There's ways to fix it.

Lugol's is TOXIC. Not because it is lugol's itself but because it is a comination of two elements
in a chemical way.
Going strong with seaweed bladderwrack,kelp and natural tree iodine is the way.

Selenium the same toxic. You have to find natural sources of them that are bioavailable for your body.
Everything else is an enemy for your physical body.It is not real for your body so its going to expel it.
Because always the body will try to stay clear of toxic ,unbioavailable substances.

I was silly and ingested 60 mg of lugols and that gave me 2 days of complete tireness and sleepiness.
When it comes to issues like them ,trust your gut feeling.

deleted

deleted

Fut87 wrote:
I've read that with 12.5mg iodine daily it will take 1 year to reach 90% saturation. 50mg will take 3 months to reach 90% saturation.

Can you provide the source of this statement?

Just started on low dose lugols. Now I am not sure about which side to be on. What are yalls thoughts on this?

http://healthwyze.org/index.php/component/content/article/54-iodine-supplementation.html

Vitamin A- Individuals with low thyroid function (hypothyroidism) have a reduced ability to convert beta-carotene into vitamin A.
Recommended amount: 25,000 IU
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)- Riboflavin is needed for the production of corticosteroids, erythropoesis gluconeogenesis, and thyroid enzyme regulation. Assists with ATP production increasing energy along with organification of Iodine.
Recommended amount: 100 mgs 2x / day

Vitamin B3 (Inositol Hexanicotinate)- is needed to increase ATP functionality to help with energy and organification of iodine.
Recommended amount: 500 mgs 2x / day

Vitamin C- Assists in the healthy function of the NIS (sodium iodine symporters) which allows the cells to pull iodine into them.
Recommended amount: 2,000 – 5,000 mgs

Iodine- Critical building block. Iodine is organified to thyroglobulin to create thyroid hormones (T4 – 4 iodine molecules & T3 – 3 Iodine molecules).
Recommended amount: 6 – 50 mgs

L-Tyrosine - This is an amino acid that is used by the thyroid gland.  It works with iodine to activate T3 and T4.  L-tyrosine attaches itself to iodine atoms to form the active thyroid hormone.  Supplementation with L-tyrosine can assist in better sleep and lowered stress.  It also aids in the function of the adrenal and pituitary glands.
Recommended amount:  500 mgs

Magnesium- Assists in the regulation of thyroid function. Is a good regulator of muscle relaxation. Activates enzymes in the body.
Recommended amount: 400-500 mgs – Note: A new form of transdermal Magnesium is now available called Ancient Minerals. It can be applied to the skin thus avoiding bowel intolerance and gut absorption issues. Magnesium Oil can be purchased HERE

Selenium- Assists in the production two enzymes: glutathione peroxidase (reacts with H2O2to reduce H to H2O) and iodothyroinine deiodinase (controls the removal of an iodine molecule to convert from T4 to T3, T3 to T2 and T2 to T1).
Recommended amount: 200 – 400 mcg

Zinc- Assists in the conversion of T4 thyroid hormone to the more active T3 form of thyroid hormone. A simple test with liquid zinc can be done to test for deficiency. If you can taste the zinc then you are not deficient. If you taste nothing then you need to supplement.  Recommended amount: 50 mgs (should be combined with 2 mgs Copper as they are antagonists and zinc will lower copper levels)

For high RT3 issues (reverse T3)  this combo works to bring the T3:RT3 ratio back in line.
Selenium, Zinc, Vit B6 and B12, Iron, Vit D and Iodine: they are all required by the 5-deiodinase enzyme responsible for proper T3 production.

** These recommendations are only general guidelines **

http://breastcancerchoices.org/bromidedetoxsymptomsandstrategies.html

Great post, CS. Thank you.

bh1546 wrote:Just started on low dose lugols. Now I am not sure about which side to be on. What are yalls thoughts on this?

http://healthwyze.org/index.php/component/content/article/54-iodine-supplementation.html

This author's main point here is that Lugol's Iodine is synthetic. Only Orthomolecular Physicians have been using synthetic vitamins to successfully treat people for over 50 years. Synthetic is not optimal and I think some people don't do so well with supplements, but they have surely helped me.

CausticSymmetry wrote:
L-Tyrosine - This is an amino acid that is used by the thyroid gland.  It works with iodine to activate T3 and T4.  L-tyrosine attaches itself to iodine atoms to form the active thyroid hormone.  Supplementation with L-tyrosine can assist in better sleep and lowered stress.  It also aids in the function of the adrenal and pituitary glands.
Recommended amount:  500 mgs

This seemed important. Looked it up and was happy to see there is plenty of Tyrosine in eggs. Eating atleast 3 eggs a day here.

I had the same reaction to Iodine. Severe side effects, beginning with a sore throat ending up with crippling palpitations and several other weird reactions. This seemed to be a lot more than just a "Bromide Detox" and I've taken the mainstream advice on this due to not getting many sensible answers for this reaction.

I can't even take a 10th of a drop of Iodine without having bad reactions.

Why not take kelp to start then? I don't see why or how people get the idea that they should jsut start dumping iodine down their throat. Nobody credible suggests that off the bat.

Duketronix wrote:Why not take kelp to start then?  I don't see why or how people get the idea that they should jsut start dumping iodine down their throat.  Nobody credible suggests that off the bat.

I followed the exact procedure that was advised on these forums as well as several other "Natural" forums at the time. But, maybe I should give Kelp a try.

Try with just KI, many people have problems with elemental iodine.

I have tried both lugol's and iodoral and both had the same effects on my TSH levels. I've heard that this was just a transient change and they should level off  with time but it didn't happen for me. Its interesting to see the different reactions people are having. For now I'm sticking with a maximum of 1-2 mg of iodine daily (which is still above recommendations), of course with the cofactors too. But to be honest, I don't believe the problem is iodine, but rather a problem with the thyroid itself which I am currently trying to get figured out. My TSH is up-and-down from month to month, pointing to Hashi's, but I won't speculate until the tests are performed.

For me iodine is safe at the proper doses, and like anything it can be dangerous if taken incorrectly. Due to the affinities of other elements for the iodine receptor, a life of iodine deficiency almost automatically assumes those receptors are occupied by other halogens, i.e. bromide and fluoride. Saturation with iodine will inevitably free up these elements for urinary excretion and this is likely to result in some symptoms as this runs its course. But the preponderance of evidence suggests that overall well-being improves when adequate iodine levels are reached. In fact, many different conditions seem to respond well to iodine supplementation, things like PCOS and diabetes.

http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-08/IOD_08.htm

http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/y2809e/y2809e0i.htm

For me, a good indicator of what our requirements ought to be can be had by taking a look at the proper intakes by weight of infants. They are in the biggest growth period of the human life and their requirements might exceed the necessary by a bit, but its a good benchmark as far as I am concerned. Its also reflective of the iodine content of the mother's breast milk.

Assuming an average intake of 150 ml/kg/day of breast milk for an infant, for a 5 kg infant (11 lbs) thats about 750 ml milk per day. Its estimated that for proper iodine storage in the infant thyroid, 15 ug/kg/day is required via breast milk or formula. The U.S. recs for infant iodine intake are 8 ug/kg/day, but these are based on breast milk concentrations from the 1960s, and iodine intake dropped immensely decades before this.

The second study above describes the data for the US (just for an idea of what we're actually getting):

LOWER LIMIT IN SAMPLE:   30 ug/L (in milk) = 4.5 ug/kg/day for the infant
UPPER LIMIT IN SAMPLE:  490 ug/L (in milk) = 73.5 ug/kg/day for the infant

So if we take the requirements on a per kg basis and approximate for 170 lb. adult:

AUTHOR SUGGESTION: 15 ug/kg/day * 77.1 kg =  1.2 mg/day for 170 lb adult
US AVERAGE IN BREAST MILK:  24 ug/kg/day * 77.1 kg = 1.9 mg/day for 170 lb. adult

By this logic (you may not agree with it), we should get about 2 mg daily of iodine. Again, the bromide/fluoride challenge is probably greater for adults as well as we have more exposure to things like tap water etc., so perhaps higher than this would be optimal. But if we factor in the fact that this much is required for infant thyroid saturation, convert the weights, and consider the infant requirements for such fast growth, I think it is probably pretty optimal. Others will argue.

EDIT: I wanted to see if this same logic applied to other minerals by seeing if the conversions would approach the recommended intakes. The following are the results. So you can see for several of the minerals (in bold) this is a pretty good approximation. For others like copper and iron (not listed) the intakes in infants are higher. So you be the judge. Remember, the value given is the conversion for a 170 lb adult based on the infant needs. Also remember that these reflect the upper ranges of content of breast milk, i.e. good healthy breast milk. You can probably assume a good portion of infants get less.

Zinc: 11.6 mg daily [recommended 11 mg/day - but this is suboptimal]
Selenium: 173.5 ug daily [recommended 50-60 ug daily - but closer to 200 ug is optimal]
Magnesium: 386 mg daily [recommended 400 mg daily]
Copper: 3.9 mg daily [recommended 1-2 mg daily - but still falls well in safe zone]

We have to consider what is an adequate intake for growth needs, and what is "optimal". So in using this infant model, we have to consider the growth velocity of the child (requires more of certain minerals, especially iron), the amounts necessary for "good" growth, and optimal amounts. The zinc may throw it off as newborns tend to have a lot of endogenous zinc which is highly concentrated in the amniotic fluid. Overall I think this method to approximate iodine needs puts us in the right range. Going a few mg above this shouldn't be a problem, but I don't see a need to supplement 50 mg either.

EDIT 2: For some key vitamins...
Vitamin A: 18,000 IU/day  [optimal around 10,000]
Vitamin D: 6000-7000 IU/day [optimal probably closer to 5,000 but definitely in range]
Vitamin E: 100 IU/day [higher than RDA but probably closer to optimal]
Vitamin C: 800-1000 mg/day [another example of one that we can get better results from taking more...to a point]

The first couple times I took %5 lugols I felt off and had a irritation in my throat (thyroid area) and a light shed which slightly worried me at that time... Been taking iodine for a year now, and can increase to very large doses of iodine if I feel like it with no ill affect. Ive even done 100mgs a couple times just because, at best had a weird taste in my mouth and a slight head sensation.. All of the cofactors are important, but I think most of you are just more toxic and poisoned than you realize... This therapy likely goes well for me because I get zero intake of fluoride in my drinking water, nor consume any other halogens, and have done plenty of heavy metal detox efforts...Its not the iodine, and the body has needs for iodide and iodine depending tissue, organic iodine alone is not enough for these purposes..

It doesn't matter how many good presentations there are...It's hard to get past this autoimmune thyroid stigma...

These are good ones posted by 4039 and myself.

Iodine for hypothyroidism: like gasoline on a fire?
http://chriskresser.com/iodine-for-hypothyroidism-like-gasoline-on-a-fire

Iodine and Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis, Part I (delves into animal studies)
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/05/iodine-and-hashimotos-thyroiditis-part-i/

iodine-and-hashimotos-thyroiditis-part-2 (human study)
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/05/iodine-and-hashimotos-thyroiditis-part-2/

And in info I have posted many times in the past:

THE UNDERLYING CAUSE OF AUTOIMMUNE THYROID ILLNESSES: IODINE
DEFICIENCY AND ANTIOXIDANT DEFICIENCY

Chapter 7 in Dr. David Brownstein's Iodine book describes the apoptotic (i.e., anti-cancer) effects of the iodinated form of lactone (δ- Iodolactone). δ-

Iodolactone is not only important for preventing cancer, its production is also necessary to help regulate the oxidation of iodine. Figure 3 illustrates this regulatory step in the oxidation/organification of iodine.

As previously mentioned, the oxidation of iodide to iodine occurs through the interaction of H2O2 and TPO. Iodine is a necessary product in order to provide the correct molecule in the cell so that organification can occur. If organification does not take place or is blocked, thyroid hormone and iodo-lipids will not be formed.

As can be seen from Figure 3, this reaction is controlled by intracellular calcium levels and iodinated lipids—δ-iodolactone.

Intracellular calcium stimulates this pathway. On the other hand, δ-iodolactone and other iodinated lipids act as a brake on the system. If there is not enough iodine in the cell to organify and produce adequate amounts of δ-iodolactone, it can set the stage for damage to the thyroid cell and the development of an autoimmune thyroid disorder such as Hashimoto’s or Graves’ disease.

A Proposed Mechanism For The Development Of Autoimmune Thyroid Disorders The NADPH oxydase system is found in the mitochondria of our cells. The mitochondria are the energyproducing cells of our body. The mitochondria produce energy (i.e., ATP) through a complex process called oxidative phosphorylation. All medical students (and most physicians) are familiar with oxidative phosphorylation because we have to memorize the many steps responsible for producing ATP.

This production of ATP requires many items including: oxygen, magnesium, ADP, and amino acids.
Many people with chronic illnesses, such as fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, and autoimmune disorders, complain they have no energy. ATP is the molecule that stores energy for the body. The body is constantly producing and utilizing ATP. Its production is a complex process that is beyond this book.

However, there are two cofactors, Vitamins B2 (riboflavin) and B3 (niacin), that are integral to stimulating oxidative phosphorylation and ATP production.

Hydrogen peroxide is a byproduct of oxidative phosphorylation. It is this production of hydrogen peroxide that is so critical to the oxidation process of iodine. Hydrogen peroxide and TPO help to oxidize iodide to form iodine.

If there is a deficiency in iodine, which is common when ingesting the RDA for iodine, there will not be enough substrate (i.e., iodine) to produce iodinated lipids. As can be seen from Figure 3, the lack of δ-iodolactone and other iodinated lipids results in a loss of the ‘brake’ in the pathway to oxidize iodide. This may result in a temporarily production of too much hydrogen peroxide. This excess hydrogen peroxide can damage the enzyme TPO.

What Happens If TPO Is Damaged?

Autoimmune Thyroid Illness The body’s response to TPO damage is to produce antibodies against TPO or anti-TPO antibodies. A diagnosis of Hashimoto’s disease requires the presence of anti-TPO antibodies. As the damage worsens, surrounding proteins can also be damaged such as thyroglobulin. Damaged thyroglobulin will result in the body producing antibodies against thyroglobulin—anti-thyroglobulin antibodies.

In most cases of Hashimoto’s disease, there are antibodies to both TPO and thyroglobulin present. Although Graves’ disease may also possess these same antibodies, antibody production is not necessary to make the diagnosis of Graves’ disease. However, my clinical experience has shown that the treatment for both Hashimoto’s and Graves’ disease can follow a similar course with similar positive outcomes.

How to Treat Autoimmune Thyroid Disorders 1. Ingest enough iodine in order to provide adequate substrate to iodinate lipids.

2. Take Vitamins B2 and B3 in amounts necessary to stimulate the NADPH system to produce adequate amounts of H2O2.

3. Correct oxidant stress in the thyroid gland and the mitochondria with antioxidants.

4. Ensure adequate magnesium levels.

5. Minimize oxidative stress in the body.