So... which stress response hormone increases the enzymes responsible for hair loss?

hoppipolla wrote:

9rugrats5 wrote:

hoppipolla wrote:
I do have a lot of Candida symptoms (that aren't common symptoms of SIBO), however peroxide kills all bacterial and fungal infections along with their biofilms (and parasites don't like it at all either, or viruses) AFAIK, so I don't think it really matters which one(s) I have!

Hoppy H2O2 is a strong compound. You shouldn't just play with hydrogen peroxide. If you really believe H2O2 can help you, buy good quality unheated honey. Honey has enzymatic and H2O2 action. To ensure you do not lose these benefits of honey, do not mix honey in foods and drinks above 40-45 deg C, and do not dilute it too much in water. Rest you can look up with the help of google and nsa.

I'm happy with peroxide for now (I researched it a lot)

Sure, as you wish. Then use in safe quantities. Good luck.

9rugrats5 wrote:

hoppipolla wrote:

9rugrats5 wrote:

hoppipolla wrote:
I do have a lot of Candida symptoms (that aren't common symptoms of SIBO), however peroxide kills all bacterial and fungal infections along with their biofilms (and parasites don't like it at all either, or viruses) AFAIK, so I don't think it really matters which one(s) I have!

Hoppy H2O2 is a strong compound. You shouldn't just play with hydrogen peroxide. If you really believe H2O2 can help you, buy good quality unheated honey. Honey has enzymatic and H2O2 action. To ensure you do not lose these benefits of honey, do not mix honey in foods and drinks above 40-45 deg C, and do not dilute it too much in water. Rest you can look up with the help of google and nsa.

I'm happy with peroxide for now (I researched it a lot)

Sure, as you wish. Then use in safe quantities. Good luck.

Cool yeah, I follow things like this:

http://www.bobbyshealthyshop.co.uk/Hydrogen-Peroxide-Internal-Use.php


On another but related note, it seems that phosphatidylserine reduces ACTH by around 38%. It's also cheap and natural.

Ginger also reduces it a bit.

I'm still learning. I also want to find something that reduces serum serotonin.

If anyone learns anything please let me know

I'm a huge fan of phosphatidyl serine. I knew about the reduction in cortisol but wasn't totally aware it was acting on ACTH. Interestingly, its used in animals who have Cushings' Disease (an overproduction of cortisol). That and melatonin. Both of these should be very helpful.

anthonyspencer54 wrote:I'm a huge fan of phosphatidyl serine. I knew about the reduction in cortisol but wasn't totally aware it was acting on ACTH. Interestingly, its used in animals who have Cushings' Disease (an overproduction of cortisol). That and melatonin. Both of these should be very helpful.

That's cool man

Do you know how much melatonin is supposed to reduce it by? I had a harder time finding studies and stuff on that that didn't just refer to cortisol reduction.

As for ginger... I haven't been able to find many studies that give percentages or similar for that either o.O

Hoppi,

I don't believe melatonin acts at the pituitary to reduce ACTH production, rather it acts at the adrenal gland itself to reduce the cortisol response to ACTH. But the study (I'd have to google it, I'm sure its on the first page if you google "melatonin cortisol in humans") reported almost a 30% reduction in cortisol. That is big.

SlowMoe wrote:Why is it that no matter how out of wack our  bodies are, that we don't lose hair on the sides of our heads?

I gotta say, the sides of my head all around my ears have the worst shedding by far.

anthonyspencer54 wrote:Hoppi,

I don't believe melatonin acts at the pituitary to reduce ACTH production, rather it acts at the adrenal gland itself to reduce the cortisol response to ACTH. But the study (I'd have to google it, I'm sure its on the first page if you google "melatonin cortisol in humans") reported almost a 30% reduction in cortisol. That is big.

Yeah but... that's only significant if cortisol is the problem.

It seems the further we go back along this chain, the more chance of success we have.

Essentially what we have are chemicals like melatonin that reduce cortisol, chemicals like phosphatidylserine that reduce ACTH, ones like astressin-b that reduce CRH and ones like cyproheptadine that reduce serotonin and loratadine that reduces histamine.

Check these:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21359208 (CRF receptor antagonist astressin-B reverses and prevents alopecia in CRF over-expressing mice)

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/board_entry-id-57588-page-5-category-5-order-last_answer-descasc-DESC.html (Antihistamines - significant reduction in shedding)

What other gut hormones affect the HPA axis?

I think we are right on the cusp of understanding this now, or at the very least nipping it at a crucial point and stopping MPB/FPB/AGA dead with one simple chemical.


EDIT -- oo, although here we have this:

http://www.healthboards.com/boards/allergies/878780-claritin-loratadine-hair-loss.html (Claritin/Loratadine & Hair Loss)

It states an INCREASE in hair loss with loratadine).

Hm. I still think we're amazingly close though

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/archive/index.php/t-59476-p-3.html (Some good news. A few years ago (2004) on the dutch hairloss forum (haarweb) there was a big discussion on antihistamine for hairloss. Many experienced hair growth after a very short period. They mainly used cetrizine!)

Satan wrote:

SlowMoe wrote:Why is it that no matter how out of wack our  bodies are, that we don't lose hair on the sides of our heads?

I gotta say, the sides of my head all around my ears have the worst shedding by far.

Yeah what the hell is up with this? I've actually had a switch in hair loss.. My hair is falling out more now from my sides then it is from the top of my head. WTF? I think it is somehow from the scalp exercise I am doing. I've been doing it now for 4 months. I've also started feeling some hair loss in the back of my head, where I always had it in the front before. Very strange.. there is definitely something going on though.. sad we don't have exact answers.. time will tell..

sanderson wrote:

Satan wrote:

SlowMoe wrote:Why is it that no matter how out of wack our  bodies are, that we don't lose hair on the sides of our heads?

I gotta say, the sides of my head all around my ears have the worst shedding by far.

Yeah what the hell is up with this? I've actually had a switch in hair loss.. My hair is falling out more now from my sides then it is from the top of my head. WTF? I think it is somehow from the scalp exercise I am doing. I've been doing it now for 4 months. I've also started feeling some hair loss in the back of my head, where I always had it in the front before. Very strange.. there is definitely something going on though.. sad we don't have exact answers.. time will tell..

I'm really not convinced it matters...

The exact areas at which the galea muscles cause DHT to lead to death of hair follicles... does it really matter?

Shouldn't we just focus on the hormones?


EDIT -- Oh and I hope you don't mind but I've decided to echo the Propecia portion of your signature as I agree fully with it and I think if more of us write it in our sigs, it will save others from having the same unpleasant experiences I am having ._.

hoppipolla wrote:

sanderson wrote:

Satan wrote:

SlowMoe wrote:Why is it that no matter how out of wack our  bodies are, that we don't lose hair on the sides of our heads?

I gotta say, the sides of my head all around my ears have the worst shedding by far.

Yeah what the hell is up with this? I've actually had a switch in hair loss.. My hair is falling out more now from my sides then it is from the top of my head. WTF? I think it is somehow from the scalp exercise I am doing. I've been doing it now for 4 months. I've also started feeling some hair loss in the back of my head, where I always had it in the front before. Very strange.. there is definitely something going on though.. sad we don't have exact answers.. time will tell..

I'm really not convinced it matters...

The exact areas at which the galea muscles cause DHT to lead to death of hair follicles... does it really matter?

Shouldn't we just focus on the hormones?


EDIT -- Oh and I hope you don't mind but I've decided to echo the Propecia portion of your signature as I agree fully with it and I think if more of us write it in our sigs, it will save others from having the same unpleasant experiences I am having ._.

well the galea isn't on the sides of the head? i'm not really sure what is going on.

and good call.. that drug has honestly been a nightmare for me.. almost completely ruined my life.. i'm so thankful i found this forum.. without it i would still be lost on just working on the side effect side of the drug. you can def. stop hair loss completely without that posion.

sanderson wrote:
well the galea isn't on the sides of the head? i'm not really sure what is going on.

and good call.. that drug has honestly been a nightmare for me.. almost completely ruined my life.. i'm so thankful i found this forum.. without it i would still be lost on just working on the side effect side of the drug. you can def. stop hair loss completely without that posion.

The muscles are though

They are all around the sides and at the front:

http://www.worldhairloss.org/index.php/hairloss/page2-featuredcontributors/the_mechanics_of_male_pattern_baldness

However of course this only explains why that area is particularly susceptible. Even if we apply a magic potion to the galea or something we're still highly susceptible to other annoying things like BPH and excessive body hair growth!

I really think the solution is along the lines of Astressin-B - http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016377

And yeah Fin is nasty >.<

sanderson wrote:

Satan wrote:

SlowMoe wrote:Why is it that no matter how out of wack our  bodies are, that we don't lose hair on the sides of our heads?

I gotta say, the sides of my head all around my ears have the worst shedding by far.

Yeah what the hell is up with this? I've actually had a switch in hair loss.. My hair is falling out more now from my sides then it is from the top of my head. WTF? I think it is somehow from the scalp exercise I am doing. I've been doing it now for 4 months. I've also started feeling some hair loss in the back of my head, where I always had it in the front before. Very strange.. there is definitely something going on though.. sad we don't have exact answers.. time will tell..

I've actually managed to get it under control for the most part. It seems like it's finally thickening back up. Hypothyroid, overburdened liver, and general metabolic hell with cause this. I think scalp massaging has helped a bit, but Ray Peat principles have done the most for me. Cynomel, caffeine, and lots of sugar have set my health back on an upward path.

hm, here's a problem.

Apparently in individuals with poor gut health (IBS and so on) the levels of serotonin transporters (SERTs) are much lower leading to higher levels of serotonin.

So... surely this means that eating ANY food could lead to higher serotonin due to the uptake of it being insufficient?

Hmph ._.

Apparently histamine can also be increased in damaged guts due to inflammation and it can also stimulate the HPA axis, but it's less likely that histamine is at the heart of this I think.


EDIT -- Ok here's the thing...

The pituitary gland has two CRH receptors on it - CRH1 and CRH2. These are what stimulate ACTH release:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corticotropin-releasing_hormone_receptor

I am unsure if ACTH can be stimulated via other means, but it seems minimal at best as far as I can tell. CRH1 and CRH2 are probably our best targets.

Of course, many other points could be used to tackle MPB such as probably the serotonin receptor sites on the hypothalamus:

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/27/26/6956.short "...we determined that 5-HT2CRs are necessary for 5-HT-induced HPA axis activation."

Or the ACTH receptor (I think there is only one):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTH_receptor

It's also debatable whether ACTH has receptors in other places. Maybe ACTH does not directly increase the enzymes that lead to MPB?

Or by actively reducing serotonin in the blood somehow or serotonin creation.

Anywho erm, that's all for now but I learned a lot!

It says here that Astressin-B is nonselective - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astressin-B - does that mean it binds to CRH1 and CRH2?

I don't know what % of the receptors are 1 vs 2.

Anyway, better go for now!! Man I was hooked xD

Ok I have a bit more here!

Apparently there are actually 4 CRH receptors, and only 1 of which is known to be in the hypothalamus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corticotropin_releasing_hormone_antagonist

"There are four subtypes of this receptor known at present, defined as CRF-1, CRF-2a, CRF-2b and CRF-2g. Three of these receptors are expressed only in the brain, CRF-1 in the cortex and cerebrum, CRF-2a in the lateral septum and hypothalamus and CRF-2g in the amygdala. CRF-2b is expressed in the choroid plexus and cerebral arterioles in the brain, but is mainly expressed peripherally, on the heart and skeletal muscle tissue."

In contrast there are TONS of serotonin (5-HT) receptors and they seem to be found all over the place (5-HT 1-7 and often sub-receptor types like 5-HT1A and so on).

Hm!

EDIT - Weirdly, I think here they found that the nonselective astressin-B caused hair growth but chemicals selective for CRF1 or CRF2 did not. This would suggest that astressin-B is hitting a receptor that the others cannot reach:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016377

DS Labs put Astressin-B in Spectral.F7. I wonder if they'd sell some to me/us on its own o.O


And a bit more on serotonin from Wikipedia:

"The gut is surrounded by enterochromaffin cells , which release serotonin in response to food in the lumen. This makes the gut contract around the food. Platelets in the veins draining the gut collect excess serotonin.

If irritants are present in the food, the enterochromaffin cells release more serotonin to make the gut move faster, i.e., to cause diarrhea, so the gut is emptied of the noxious substance. If serotonin is released in the blood faster than the platelets can absorb it, the level of free serotonin in the blood is increased. This activates 5HT3 receptors in the chemoreceptor trigger zone that stimulate vomiting."

This would explain the elevated serum serotonin, along with the decreased SERTs.

"Only 5-HT 2C R and 5-HT 1D R transcripts were consistently identified as present in the PVH, and of these, the 5-HT 2C R was expressed at a substantially higher level."

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=85873 (Reported success with Agomelatine which blocks 2C)

There is a chance that all we need to do is block the correct serotonin receptor.

"Stimulation of 5-HT 2C receptors leads to increase of corticotropin releasing hormone (CRH) and vasopressin mRNA in the paraventricular nucleus and proopiomelanocortin in the anterior pituitary lobe."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17596444 (Serotonin activates the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis via serotonin 2C receptor stimulation) - This whole thing is amazing!

I think we should try (partly) blocking 2C and see if it works for hair loss!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT2C_receptor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_antagonist

Hm o.O

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Steroidogenesis.svg

Blocking as with a drug is not only unnecessary, it is disruptive.

From an integrative medicine standpoint, I will offer what I think is a superior way to deal
with an abnormal CRF/CRH response.

Reducing excessive stress response has been pretty well covered in posts even years ago.

The "trend" of the week or month easily forgets.

Thinking back on my hair loss days, I was in much worse shape from an ability to deal with stress or
whatever difficulties arose.

Ever wonder why one man's stress response differs from another?

Reading past posts (which is near impossible to find without knowing where) reveal a lot of the answers.

So rather than needing to reinvent every near wheel on this, here are some things to look closer at.

Fluoride intoxication. It wreaks havoc on the hypothalamus. (Another reason to incorporate iodine into one's system)
Imagine for a moment that it is fluoride that in some individuals causes an over excitation of hormone delivery in the hypothalamus, would that cause an exaggerated stress response?

Answer: Most certainly.

Poisoning prostaglandin receptors is a bad idea. (this is a natural forum after all).

Also, there are ways to correct exaggerated histamine responses.

Mineral homeostasis. This is huge...more than what most people would imagine. Why? Because most drug
stores where most people think to buy whatever natural supplement will find the absolute worse quality,
most of which is poorly absorbed and in the most inferior form possible.

Heavy metals. This can make a rather profound difference in the way people go about their stress response.
It also maximizes testosterone levels when given a time long enough to carry a proper protocol out.
More testosterone equals calm in a man. Less testosterone equals rage and high stress/anxiety in men.

Dental work (especially mercury toxicity), root canals, infections, etc. - Normalizing this activity with a proper dentist
can put nightmares behind a person.

Are you getting enough salt? Are you getting enough of the right kind of salt?
Because of two influences, my non-stop infrared sauna use and especially Xenon, with his
theory of heat causing hair loss (which I 100% agree with). I have more or less been
looking up as much information in the literature as I can think of, and all of it supports his
theory 100%. Plus, yesterday I found a paper, which explored this theory in the early 80's.

So back to salt...take a look at this study and see how you conclude on it.
http://jp.physoc.org/content/551/2/713.long

More on the salt....in the past I have written at least a few published articles on salt and its
benefits. You can almost bet your bottom dollar that the AHA (Another Heart Attack) is more about money
than actual health, because most of their heavy weighted recommendations are/have been downright
detrimental for survival and optimal health.

Drugs that lower blood pressure, 'work' by poisoning the sodium pump...which is essential for the heart to pump blood.
Also, restricting salt is a futile exercise if you want to be healthy (yes certainly balance your potassium levels too,
and your magnesium), but I digress.

Sodium chloride, not also acts as an anti-anxiety agent, it also produces calm, superior electron transport, (lowers blood pressure--I didn't make a typo....that's lowers (in non-salt sensitive people), and it even lowers core body temperature.

Antioxidants are essential if one wants to better manage keep their core temperature lower in the scalp...because a cytokine (inflammatory response, generates heat).

Last, but not least is Omega-3 fatty acids. Don't let that Ray Peat propaganda have you drop Krill or fish oil...because
they will help slow your aging clock (I'm not making that up, it's in the medical literature).

How much salt are we talking here? The government allows for a LOT of salt IMO. I just looked up the nutrition facts for a bag of Lay's potato chips and they actually have less salt than the government recommends. 1 oz. has 160 calories and 170 mg of sodium. 2000 calories/160 = 12.5 servings. 12.5 servings * 170 mg sodium per serving = 2125 mg sodium. This is less than what the government sets as a high mark. I've read you should get at least 500 mg sodium per day just to survive. If I'm cooking unsalted foods I try to add about 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of salt per day (the food is barely salty). Is this too little?

Also, if you eat a a lot of salt don't you just retain water? Bodybuilders regulate their salt intake to get really ripped and I would think that someone with higher body fat would just retain even more water with a high salt diet.

Is Sea Salt ok?

Technically, the answer is "no," but not always. It depends on the type of sea salt.

Probably no less than a 50 posts in the past on why. However, I'm quite certain that one
that is safe in all respects is this product for a variety of reasons.

I've been gathering a lot of data over the last week or so, and the evidence is compelling on the relationship of heat stress and hair loss...More importantly, all of the ways to keep it regulated.

I have found that the majority of people fall into the trap of over simplifying everything. Salt is not the only answer.
The product I mentioned in the link is balanced, and contains a negative charge.

Consider it a tool in the arsenal. I have for the last 6-months replaced my standard magnesium with it. It goes
in all of my drinking water without fail.

CS, I'm interested in how you've gotten on board the thermoregulatory aspect of hair loss. I personally haven't researched this to nearly the extent you or Xenon have, so I'm curious. For me the question of the male versus female distributions of pattern loss still stands out. Is there anything you've found that can explain this, obviously there is something correlating hormones here or something particular to the male anatomy. Have you come up with any ideas as to what that could be? I know that Xenon has mentioned before that DHT leads to increased heat production, but the mechanisms on how this could be are eluding me.

Obviously downstream inflammatory properties of androgens could be promoting the heat, but inflammation itself doesn't necessarily suggest increased heat production, rather the increase in blood flow (from histamine) is generally what's responsible for the heat. If there was some kind of evidence that androgen hormones lead to changes in the thermoregulatory machines of the skin, that would be something. Or if the male physiology features a different, distinct distribution of ateries/veins and sweat glands in the scalp, that could be something too.

But I just don't think we can say the metabolic machinery in and of itself (between men and women) is so different that men are producing significantly more heat than women. I mean sure, the greater amount of lean tissues would generate more heat and metabolic waste (especially during exercise), but we'd still have to show that something particular about men's systems for diffusing heat are different than women's, otherwise, hair loss would be present all over the body. There are some interesting evolutionary ideas behind that though.

anthonyspencer54 - Part of my answer is contained in the thread on
"IS BALDNESS A THERMOREGULATORY ADAPTIVE PROCESS?"

The medical literature was pretty clear about the differences in core heat reduction between a man and a women...so far I haven't made any attempt to completely understand all the mechanisms...However, I do understand that the excessive heat depletes electrons, which is the eventual "dead end" for the dermal papilla.

Because I have used an infrared sauna for over a year and a half (in fact, it's been one year and 7 months) to be exact. Some of that time was without incorporating any extra minerals, another with some extra salt inclusion, but not quite as heavy, followed by the last 6-months a much more concentrated electrolyte formula (heavier on sodium chloride).

When Xenon first made mention of the sweat/heating association, I started paying attention, because in my then and current circumstance was regular use of the infrared sauna. What turned the light on for me was the research that I have done in the past, how it perfectly explains away a lot of the heat factor.

Any damage to whatever system in the body is due to the depletion of electrons...Tying that in with the research on anxiety, and so much more....It could go on for pages to explain it all...I'll just say that I have accidentally tested this theory out in advance without knowing it until recently.

So yes, I think the improvements in the very weakest area of my hair since incorporating the salts has increased the interest for me.

If I didn't already mention this on this thread.....yes bald people sweat more (significantly more)
Certainly there are various reasons for this, much of what has been discussed here in the past.
Suffice to say, antioxidants by day, EFA's (reduces pro-oxidants and negative prostaglandins), will reduce
heat....if one uses a sauna...definitely load up on that salt (negatively charged). Yes, I'm still using the sauna...

Also looking into different methods of cool pillows...which I'm still investigating....Haven't tried anything in that department so far.

CS, that's interesting. I'd like to research the topic more. I think its going to take doing that a bit more to convince me personally, well just because I'm that prick haha. But I will say that I've lost hair faster and younger than a majority of men, and I without a doubt sweat more by far than almost anyone I know, particularly through the face and scalp.