Off Topic- Carnivores vs Vegetarians

So Ive got a good a friend of mine who has been vegetarian for a few years now and swears up and down he would never go back to eating meat. Nor would he ever eat eggs again. Even though be eats cake and baked goods that have eggs in them. I tried to convince him to eat local organic farm raised eggs like I do which are incredible tasting an extremely good for you. He cares alot about his body and I told him that he would absorb 93% of the protein in the eggs and get a very good dose of choline. He just shakes his head at me and stays closed off to the idea. I think he has issues with the way most animals are raised and treated in a non-grassfed farm/environment. I know Immortal you said that just about every study on or using meat doesnt use grassfed meat...

I know that being a vegetarian has its benefits for sure. And Ive read that you can get plenty of protein and amino acids from eating the right vegetables. Im a carnivore and I love just about every kind of meat that I have tried. I also like being open minded and having an endless menu when it comes to food- not just closed off to half the items or less. Im just wondering what some of the benefits to being a carnivore are that would stand in an argument against a vegetarian.

Angstman, I dont think there are any advantages .. Atleast I cant think of any. Even without meat you have a world of foods, more than plenty.

Undoubtly other members here will have a different oppinion.

I love the last sentence on this article

http://www.asylum.com/2008/09/15/a-vegertarian-diet-shrinks-the-brain/

angstman - I'm pretty convinced that discovering the correct "Metabolic type" or nutritional typing would allow optimal health for the individual.

But I'm going to answer your question directly, because having listened to the Nathan "Pritikin programmed robots" over the years and taking their advice to ill health a long time ago made me realize what works for them was a health disaster for me.

Beef is loaded with one of the best anti-aging nutrients called Carnosine. Vegans get ZERO, but fortunately they can supplement with it. Here's a Life Extension article on it:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/jan2003_report_carnosine_01.html

A strict vegan will have trouble acquiring decent amounts of EPA/DHA, since there is a relatively poor conversion of it from plant derived alpha-linolenic acid (ALA).

I know that many nutritionally aware vegans have many ways to deal with B12 issues. I have noticed that patient wise, there is a collectively large number of vegetarians who tend to get autoimmune problems. I suspect this may have to do with the gluten intolerance and probably thyroid suppression.

I think a lot of vegans usually just feel better without high fat and meat and maybe the whole animal thing is icing on the cake. But what lot of them may not know is that those large harvesting combines kill more animals during grain harvests (they are small animals) than they probably ever want to imagine.

IMO, vegetarianism and especially veganism are eating disorders. We humans are omnivores, plain and simple. Our bodies are designed to digest both meat and plants.

If there's a religious reason behind not eating meat (or certain meats) fine, i'll understand (or try to). If there's another moral reason behind not eating meat (the ill-treatment of animals; slaughterhouses, etc.), i'll try to understand that too.

But, for those who say a vegetarian diet is actually healthier than an omnivore diet is kidding themselves. These people are usually those who hold moral reasons for their vegetarian lifestyle. They, then, try to convince others (and themselves) that eating this way is also healthier. Maybe there are some people who do well on not eating any meat. But, it's not the norm.

Well I've been talking about my vegetarian opinions for a while now, because I think Lipoprotein-A is the main cause of baldness and i've been trying to get my LP-a level down. But today I thought my theory was shot in the foot, cause i met a old friend from high school, one year older than me (25) and he has gone 100% bald already. And this guy is pretty much pure vegetarian. So I told him about my opinion that lp-a causes baldness and he said "well that makes sense cause I have really high cholesterol." ANd I said, how do you have high cholesterol if you're vegetarian? He didn't know.

So anyway I thought my theory was shot until he said he had high cholesterol. I'm know a lot of vegetarians and in this particular group, it's interesting that the ONLY one who's bald happens to have high cholesterol.

CS do you know of any studies that give evidence to the metabolic type theory? It seems like it caters to people who have wishful thinking, like my dad who is a fan of Mercola.com and he thinks that he is a protein type so he loads up on red meat. And my dad has diabetes, he has high cholesterol, and i keep telling him that red meat is making both of your conditions worse but he just claims "i'm a protein type, i don't get much energy from carbs, I need fats to be full." It just seems like their logic is "i enjoy meat/veggies/ wahtever, therefore it is good for me and my body needs it." Yeah well I love sugar and cigars too but it doesn't mean I have metabolic system that runs on it.

The only evidence I've seen in a study has to do with iron levels, I noticed a study that showed that children of native alaskan's were much more likely to have iron deficiency when on a western diet. That makes sense because their ancestors ate such a high meat diet that their bodies had to limit how much iron was absorbed. So I can see how if a native alaskan were to eat vegetarian, he might become anemic becuase his body may not absorb much iron.

spio - 80% of the cholesterol we have is manufactured (synthesized via the liver). Dietary cholesterol is relatively insignificant. High cholesterol is usually caused by low thyroid or low iodine levels (almost one in the same). A very common response is, "but my thyroid tests come out normal." Most thyroid tests are useless, unless other factors are taken into account.

Another measure indicative of high cholesterol is low testosterone levels.

I don't consider Lp(a) to be comparable to typical measures of cholesterol, because Lp(a) is a totally different animal. Lipoprotein(a) ultimately predicts the amount of fibrinogen you're getting and this is very significant because it impacts how viscous (thick) your blood is.

If I had to measure just one single cardiovascular risk factor in a heart patient, it would be that most doctors rarely ever look at. Blood viscosity.

The thicker your blood, the higher your blood pressure (it's well established that hair loss is strongly correlated with hypertension). Moreover, the greater your blood viscosity, the more friction on the arterial walls is exhibited.

With this thick, sludge-like blood coursing through our circulatory system a very deleterious effect is thickening (atheroma) of the inner lining of the artery. As these walls get thicker, the blood flow pressure must increase so it is a cycle that feeds into itself.

As mentioned in the Lp(a) thread, there isn't a diet that can correct Lp(a), neither are there any drugs available either.

The only substances to my knowledge that help lower Lp(a) is high-dose niacin, Vitamin C, and Co-Enzyme Q10.

There are several things that can reduce fibrinogen levels, which is at the heart of dealing with this problem. My personal favorite is Ecklonia Cava (Fibroboost).

Red meat is a super food (if) it is grass-fed. Other meat contains iron also. The problem with grain-fed red meat is the higher omega-6 content. Some studies have shown a negative correlation between red meat consumption and heart disease. This food has been slandered to the upmost degree among dietitians.

Studies that often vilify red meat are not properly control to consider other dietary habits.

I have no supporting studies on metabolic typing. I can say that I have observed farmers who are very healthy at old ages who have eaten almost exclusively whole, raw milk and grass-fed cattle as their primary diet. They are usually as healthy as a horse.

Well I found this article on mercola saying how diet can affect Lp(a). He quotes a study that says that a diet high in veggies, fruits, and nuts lowered lp(a) by 24%.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/09/17/lipoprotein-a.aspx

When you say low testosterone levels can be a problem, do you mean total or free? Or both? My free test is on the high side, as is with most premature balders. My total testosterone is on the average to low-average, like 600 I think.

As always, thank you for the in depth response!

I just ordered niacin, vitamin C, and krill oil (you pointed out another study earlier that showed this was helpful in reducing Lp-a also) a few days ago. I'll let you know how it works in a month or so. This'll be my last shot at stopping my shedding hair, if it doesn't work i'm giving up!

Actually my hair hasn't gotten much worse visually, like my hairline hasn't receded much. So it's definitely slowed down compared to how fast it was thinning a year ago, but still whenever I'm sitting in class and I run my hand through my hair a few times, I look down at my book and I see over a dozen hairs sitting in my book.

Espio - Thanks for posting that mercola article. I totally forgot that I once saw that coconut oil lowers Lp(a) which would concur with Mary Enig's opinion.

Regarding testosterone. If testosterone levels are too low, that can often cause a rise in cholesterol levels.

I think the idea of metabolic typing is very plausible. It is well-known that our genes react to what we eat, I would not be surprised if there are a group of genes that assist in determining what kind of foods we are good at digesting. And these genes are likely to have been influenced alot by what our ancestors ate. These genes are reactive to our current diet, what we eat .. Probably also in particular to healthy hair. Atleast, this makes sense to me.

I have been a "healthy" eater for about 10 years now. I became vegetarian about a year and a half ago. I didn't do it for health reasons as I think a tiny amount of meat in a largely raw/vegetable diet is probably optimal. Rather, I did it for environmental reasons. Read "The Future of Life" by biologist and two-time Pulitzer Prize winner Edward O. Wilson. Anyone with half a heart will have a hard time continuing their carnivore ways after reading that book. I say that because I LOVE meat. I mean, I think it's the bees knees as far as taste bud rewards go. My heritage is Scottish and I grew up consuming meat (mainly chicken and beef) as the main part of every single meal. But over the years, I had reduced my intake to support a better balanced omnivore diet and then more recently to a vegetarian one. And I think I spent the first three months almost exclusively eating eggs and cheese. I just craved animal products so much. It was pretty difficult actually. But after a time, I became more comfortable with it and started eating like a healthy vegetarian. I definitely noticed some positive changes in by body; namely reduction of fat around my waistline, reduced stress, better sleep, and a feeling of general lightness. Disadvantages I've seen over the last year and a half have been low energy and general malaise. However, these seem to be when I'm eating unhealthy i.e. more breads, sweets, etc. And this is a common theme I see with vegans and vegetarians...you can't just take out the meat and proclaim health; you have to engineer a diet that gives your body what it needs. What I've done is tried to consume a whole food vegetarian diet that consists mainly of raw vegetables, a variety of nuts, beans, and eggs. Don't get me wrong, when I go out, I have whatever I want on the menu (veggie of course), but my main-stays are those listed above. Added to this is a variation of the IH regiment, as well as other supplements addressing specifics to my dietary choice i.e. Dr. Mercola's B-12 spray, L-Lysine, etc. And since I've found a good regiment, I honestly feel the best I've felt in years...

Now, with all of that said, I have been recently considering going back to eating meat every so often...perhaps once a month, just to make sure I am getting some of those vits/mins that the body has a hard time absorbing otherwise. While I feel great daily, that isn't to say that I'm not missing some long-term necessities. I'll have you know that I'm not a preacher of the vegetarian diet (for health) or close-minded to any new evidence contrary to my lifestyle. But in looking at the prospect of having meat here and there, I'm worried that it may open the floodgates. I wasn't the best omnivore out there...sneaking off to IN N Out Burger once a week or so, and having chicken or fish with almost every meal. I'm sure many of you can relate. See, what I've found is that it's much EASIER to be a healthy eater when I'm vegetarian because burgers, teriyaki chicken, sausages and the like are not even an option. There is definitely something to be said for the guidelines it sets and the mindset it creates. This kind of goes along with something someone said earlier regarding vegetarianism and veganism being eating disorders. I agree to an extent as I know a lot of overweight people who become vegan for "health" reasons when all they are really looking to do is reduce caloric intake and lose weight. But by that logic, every diet -- even self-designed ones -- can be considered eating disorders. So, I don't think people that follow certain diets or label themselves as this or that have eating disorders -- it's why they're doing it and how they follow the diet that determines that.

As for the poster that shared the article about the brain shrinkage, I'd say it sounds like you've already made up your mind which you think is better already. In looking for that article, I'd imagine you came across dozens and dozens of other studies that detailed how much healthier a vegetarian diet is than the "average" diet and that it lowers blood pressure, reduces the risk of many forms of heart disease, type II diabetes & a variety of cancers, helps maintain a healthy body weight, and has been shown by entire cultures to support a longer lifespan. But yeah, the brain shrinkage thing is interesting...

As for hair, it is hard to say. I started my vegetarian diet about the same time I stopped using Fin. and Minox. I have definitely had some loss over the last year and a half. But both of those medications had been very kind to me in the scalp department. I'm still playing with my regiment and still open-minded to eating meat once in a while if I can keep the demon at bay and really, really just do it for health reasons instead of trying to find some round-about way of justifying the consumption of meat because I like the taste of it. People who do that are as bad as overweight vegans who purport that diet's incredible health benefits. I think in designing a diet for yourself, like anything else in life, honesty is the key.

Espio wrote:Well I found this article on mercola saying how diet can affect Lp(a). He quotes a study that says that a diet high in veggies, fruits, and nuts lowered lp(a) by 24%.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/09/17/lipoprotein-a.aspx

When you say low testosterone levels can be a problem, do you mean total or free? Or both? My free test is on the high side, as is with most premature balders. My total testosterone is on the average to low-average, like 600 I think.

As always, thank you for the in depth response!

I want to listen to what that Mercola dude has to say, but then I take a look at that cue ball and I get worried

He's stated before that he lost almost all of his hair before he turned his health around. He believes he would've kept more of it if he would've discovered a lot of what he knows earlier.

NewReg- Thanks for sharing your info. Id say I am not your average omnivore. To me, its all about moderation. If you eat regular store bought red meat every night, then yes, Im sure you will have problems in the long run. There is no sneaking out to In N Out burger, in fact, I rarely ever eat fast food. Wendy's spicy chicken is pretty much it. I would say half, if not more of the meat I cook is from what my father in law has killed- mostly dear and wild hog. My wife and I are now adding grassfed meats from the health food stores to our diets. In your case, would eating meat once a month even be worth it? Doesnt the stomach need time to build up those acids/enzymes needed for breaking down meats if meats havent been in your system some time?

On another note, I want to say I read recently that the more cooked your meat is, the harder it is to break down and digest. Anyone heard of this?

angstman wrote:NewReg- Thanks for sharing your info. Id say I am not your average omnivore. To me, its all about moderation. If you eat regular store bought red meat every night, then yes, Im sure you will have problems in the long run. There is no sneaking out to In N Out burger, in fact, I rarely ever eat fast food. Wendy's spicy chicken is pretty much it. I would say half, if not more of the meat I cook is from what my father in law has killed- mostly dear and wild hog. My wife and I are now adding grassfed meats from the health food stores to our diets. In your case, would eating meat once a month even be worth it? Doesnt the stomach need time to build up those acids/enzymes needed for breaking down meats if meats havent been in your system some time?

On another note, I want to say I read recently that the more cooked your meat is, the harder it is to break down and digest. Anyone heard of this?

Yeah, isn't that because the foods contain some enzymes that help you digest them but cooking kills the enzymes?

scottyc33 - Totally second hapyman regarding Dr. Mercola. He mentioned on a few occasions that this high carbohydrate diet (grains in particular) were the reason for his hair loss. Mercola also stated once that if he had not eaten that diet and took antioxidants, he probably would have all of this hair today.

With that said, I feel a little sorry for Mercola, since he ran around in circles absorbing dogma for a decade and change before he realized what was happening.

I've seen him blame a few things for his hair loss. He also said it was because he got his cholesterol really low in a video. In another video, he said it was cause he was long distance running and wasn't taking antioxidants.

Someone explain to me how long distance running can affect hairloss

Take a look at the immortalhair page where it talks about Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS) and free radicals. When you exercise, your oxygen intake increases by 10 to 20 fold, causing more free radicals and ROS. This has more info on it also:

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Antioxidants/Introduction.html#anchor3347790

I notice a lot of endurance athletes tend to have more thinning than usual, including myself as a long distance runner and cyclist.

I was thinking, another reason why endurance athletes might go bald more often is because, according to the metabolic type theories, they tend to be far on the carb type scale, since they burn through energy slower. Wheras sprinters tend to be protein types because they need to burn through energy over a short period of time. So perhaps the typical western diet is more damaging to the carb type? It's a thought.

angstman wrote:NewReg- Thanks for sharing your info. Id say I am not your average omnivore. To me, its all about moderation. If you eat regular store bought red meat every night, then yes, Im sure you will have problems in the long run. There is no sneaking out to In N Out burger, in fact, I rarely ever eat fast food. Wendy's spicy chicken is pretty much it. I would say half, if not more of the meat I cook is from what my father in law has killed- mostly dear and wild hog. My wife and I are now adding grassfed meats from the health food stores to our diets. In your case, would eating meat once a month even be worth it? Doesnt the stomach need time to build up those acids/enzymes needed for breaking down meats if meats havent been in your system some time?

On another note, I want to say I read recently that the more cooked your meat is, the harder it is to break down and digest. Anyone heard of this?

I'm actually not sure if eating meat once a month would be effective. Perhaps once a week? I don't know. If I go back to eating meat, I'll just have to experiment. I mean, I definitely don't subscribe to the "one diet for everyone" approach. However, even among those who believe that different diets affect different people in different ways, there is no real consensus on "how" or "why". Some believe it has to do with blood type, CS is a fan of the oxidizer theory, Ayurveda will have you believe it is dictated by a combination of your physical characteristics, and others believe you just need to "listen" to your own body. I'm definitely a big fan of listening to one's body, but some times we just don't know how to interpret the information i.e. people that crave red meat might actually need some extra B-12 or iron, but people who crave sweets don't necessarily "need" sugar. So, simply going that route seems inconsistent. Personally, I believe it has a lot to do with one's heritage. We all, at some point in time, share a common ancestry. And most agree that meat-eating was a part of the human diet before...well maybe before we were true homosapiens, so we are all probably supposed to be omnivores to one degree or another. However, which tribe your more recent ancestors branched off to, where they eventually settled, and what nutrients were available there (plants, animals, level of sunlight), might have a huge effect on what food is right for you. For example, I am mainly Scottish. Now, my ancestors may have lived for a good 100,000 years in that area, and if so, each generation would have weeded out those who were not suited for the conditions and nutrients available there. Eventually, maybe it can be theorized that the diet available there would be best (or at least well-suited) for the offspring born there. I know that for me, I can't handle fruit. It tastes weird in my mouth, and it often upsets my stomach. Scotland's not known for their fruit, so there may be something to it. I'm not sure. However, armed with this theory, when I wanted to try vegetarianism again, I focused more on root vegetables i.e. potatoes, beets, etc. and have done much, much better this time around. I of course eat food from other regions and cultures, but I've noticed some patterns for myself when it comes to sweet vs. savory, bright vs. earthy, etc. I don't really know where I'm going with all of this except to say that when we want to get "healthy" we may be inclined to try this great new superfood or that vitamin everyone is raving about. However, there probably isn't a perfect supplement or diet for everyone, because human evolution has become so diverse. I mean, different people even have different tolerances to the sun, which is something we've evolved with since the beginning of our time here...so there's that. Food for thought...err yeah, no pun intended.

If you miss the meat on your bones effect that meat offers, you may want to try eating ricotta cheese. It seems to offer all of the appetite suppression by way of saturated fat and slow digestion, and helps to build a lot of muscle.

Going back to long distance running- would be a good thing to take SOD after running every day?

angstman - I'm not a 100% sure, but would do it to be on the safe side.