Question about quercitin (anthony, immortal, anyone)

Hey guys. So Im considering trying a topical with onion extract in it. A main part of onion extract is quercitin.

Two questions.

1) Quercitin has been shown to have androgen receptor blocking properties. It has also been shown to raise testosterone in large doses as well as mediate finasteride induced DHT reduction in rats with high doses. I have always been very sensitive to substances with androgen effecting qualities including saw palmetto, finasteride (obviously), both internally and topically. Hence my concern for trying topical onion extract. But another part of me says that since its the whole extract, it will be more balanced than just direct quercitin usage. The main effects for me are usually quick onset of decreased libido. Thoughts? Should I be concerned?

2) Quercitin has been shown to interfere with the p-450 cytochrome enzyme in the liver. I currently take lexapro (escitalopram) which I believe is broken down using this enzyme in the liver (citalopram is, which is celexa). So my concern here is obvious. But at the same time, quercitin is present in significant amounts of all kinds of citrus fruits and of course whole onions, etc. Should I be concerned about a small amount of topical quercitin effecting the breakdown of lexapro in my body?

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated !!

Any insight guys? Would be so very appreciative!

sizzlinghairs wrote:Hey guys. So Im considering trying a topical with onion extract in it. A main part of onion extract is quercitin.

Two questions.

1) Quercitin has been shown to have androgen receptor blocking properties. It has also been shown to raise testosterone in large doses as well as mediate finasteride induced DHT reduction in rats with high doses. I have always been very sensitive to substances with androgen effecting qualities including saw palmetto, finasteride (obviously), both internally and topically. Hence my concern for trying topical onion extract. But another part of me says that since its the whole extract, it will be more balanced than just direct quercitin usage. The main effects for me are usually quick onset of decreased libido. Thoughts? Should I be concerned?

2) Quercitin has been shown to interfere with the p-450 cytochrome enzyme in the liver. I currently take lexapro (escitalopram) which I believe is broken down using this enzyme in the liver (citalopram is, which is celexa). So my concern here is obvious. But at the same time, quercitin is present in significant amounts of all kinds of citrus fruits and of course whole onions, etc. Should I be concerned about a small amount of topical quercitin effecting the breakdown of lexapro in my body?

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated !!

sizzlinghairs - The "risk" of using Quercetin either from food or supplement is almost nothing...However, taking selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), such as Lexapro is another matter entirely.

Essentially, these drugs increase hair loss risk, and it can occur for multiple reasons.

Worse, for optimal health, these drugs cover up the real problem (could be an enzyme defect, digestive or other disruption), plus it will hit thyroid...not something you want for optimal sexual function or good health for that matter.

Quercetin acts in a very different manner than finasteride or saw palmetto...So much so, it's like comparing two totally different things. I would not be concerned about topical onion extract (except for the smell)...however much more concerned about the Lexapro.

Thanks immortal. Yea, I'm planning to definitely get off lexapro for sure. Thanks for your advice on that.

In terms of quercetin and it's androgen receptor antagonism, would you say it's only in response to inflammation or an "across the board" response. AKA is it positively adaptive ic in the proper dosage?

Thanks again!

sizzlinghairs wrote:Thanks immortal. Yea, I'm planning to definitely get off lexapro for sure. Thanks for your advice on that.

In terms of quercetin and it's androgen receptor antagonism, would you say it's only in response to inflammation or an "across the board" response. AKA is it positively adaptive ic in the proper dosage?

Thanks again!

On a side note...if you decide to continue to take escitalopram..there are no interactions with Quercetin (despite the P450 Cytochrome factor).

I can say that SSRI's affect the intestinal microflora in ways that can negatively effect not just thyroid function, but also impacts on stress response.

I do plan to get off lexapro, but are you saying its absolutely doing that damage ? Becuase I have seemed to tolerate it pretty well (1omg/day).

Also if you could re-clarify, in terms of quercetin and it's androgen receptor antagonism, would you say it's only in response to inflammation or an "across the board" response. AKA is it positively adaptogenic in in the proper dosage? Or are you saying at a small topical amount the androgen receptor blockage would have no effect?

Gracias!

It's difficult to know how a food will affect you superficially without a lot of other information. Also, people exhibit different responses. Would be more concerned about the drug, which does systemically alter normal physiology. Anytime a drug is introduced, it creates a quagmire...sometimes feedback loops are disrupted. Even something as "simple" as finasteride can in some people irrevocably alter normal physiology.

I agree with CS on everything. Quercetin has and will be one of the only plant extract I take consistently. There are volumes of information pertaing to evience for its beneficial effects on oxidative stress, and in particular for my situation (and hair loss sufferers), it has a powerful effect on stabilizing mast cells. In other words it stops the mast cells from releasing their products, most of which incite an immune response and produce inflammation. Combined with zinc and vitamin C, quercetin can help lower mast cell sensitivity. People with histamine problems typically deal with allergic symptoms quite often, in addition to weight fluctuations, bloating, edema, facial flushing. I think mast cells have an important role i hair loss and gut problems. Quercetin is a big help.

Yeah, never going to touch finasteride again. I feel like its hormonal genocide.

Anyways, I guess what Im getting at with the quercitin thing is, you dont think it should cause a libido or sexual function problem due to its androgen blocking properties right?

Thanks again.

sizzlinghairs wrote:Yeah, never going to touch finasteride again. I feel like its hormonal genocide.

Anyways, I guess what Im getting at with the quercitin thing is, you dont think it should cause a libido or sexual function problem due to its androgen blocking properties right?

Thanks again.

Would not expect such side-effects to occur. Just the opposite.

yeah I remember some natural energy drinks that only had green tea and quercetin some juice and stevia boosted libido.

I'll put it this way, in 3-4 yrs of taking it supplementally, I don't think its had a major hormonal effect either way. Flavonoids are estrogenic but pretty weak. You shouldn't suffer any libido problems with it.

Thanks guys.

So Anthony, no drop in libido for you? And quercetin is estrogenic? I thought it just blocked androgen receptors.

(Sorry for the barrage of questions here, I have been traumatized by experiences on saw palmetto, finast, and even other very very mildly androgen/hormone related substances)

Quercetin is odd. In terms of its estrogenic activity, it seems to have a beneficial ability to induce the beta estrogen receptor. The affinity of quercetin for either estrogen receptor is quite low, about 10,000 times lower than geinstein (soy) and in the millions of times lower than estradiol. But once it interacts with ER-b it has the ability to activate transcription quite powerfully. Overall, unless you are taking pretty high doses, I doubt the effect will be noticeable at all, but it does have potential for cancer therapies, although there is conflicting data showing that in some contexts it can actually promote er-positive tumor cell proliferation. But again, the dose is important. And its pretty much worthless to try and find a one-size-fits-all role for these types of compounds...the number of proteins they interact with at the cellular level is mind blowing and these affect the response.

The androgen receptor aspect is a good example. It seems quercetin can lower AR expression, through interacting w/ the c-Jun protein, a dimer in the AP-1 protein. How this occurs is beyond me. But sunlight/UV radiation tends to upregulate c-Jun. Probably the biggest thing is quercetin, like many other flavanoids, can inhibit type 1 5-alpha reductase. Anything with that catechol group can really, so can caffeine. Again, how large the effect is depends on the dose, and even at physiologically relevant concentrations I'm not sure how big that would be.

Personally, I've taken it for a long time and it hasn't made or broken my hair situation. Actually, I like it for the anti-histamine effects the most. Overall, I think its a good anti-oxidant. But loading up on it to shut down the AR is probably not a good idea, and probably isn't worth it.

Thanks for the reply Anthony.

Well I would only be using it topically, not internally. With your internal usage, besides hair effects, have you noticed any effect on your libido/sexual function?

Ack wish I could've added this to my last reply but too late. Quickly, does inhibiting type 1 5ar decrease DHT as well? (hoping it doesnt)

Nope, no changes in libido whatsoever. Again, I think if we really wanted to test whether these effects would occur it would require a fairly high dose. Yes, anything that inhibits 5-ar has the potential to lower DHT and at the same time increase test and estradiol. Funny thing is that when this occurs other enzymes in the skin tend to compensate, like 17B-HSD. This is probably the reason for the increase in testosterone with 5-ar inhibition. But also keep in mind that the different isoforms of 5-ar have different distributions in each individual, which complicates things. Overall, I wouldn't worry about quercetin at all. Its not like taking finasteride.

Gotcha, thanks.

Isnt it true though that type 2 5ar is like 90% responsible for converting DHT?

Could you explain how if it inhibits type 1 there would be a possibility of it not lowering DHT? Ive always been confused about the "possiblity" vs the "absolute" when it comes to the action of certain substances.. Maybe on such a low level bodily homeostasis would compensate with more DHT to whatever is lowered by quercitin?

I guess to be more clear, if quercitin blocks type 1, isnt it absolute that it will lower DHT? How could it be just a potential?

Oy Vay, my brain full of so many questions! :/

anthonyspencer54 wrote:I agree with CS on everything. Quercetin has and will be one of the only plant extract I take consistently. There are volumes of information pertaing to evience for its beneficial effects on oxidative stress, and in particular for my situation (and hair loss sufferers), it has a powerful effect on stabilizing mast cells. In other words it stops the mast cells from releasing their products, most of which incite an immune response and produce inflammation. Combined with zinc and vitamin C, quercetin can help lower mast cell sensitivity. People with histamine problems typically deal with allergic symptoms quite often, in addition to weight fluctuations, bloating, edema, facial flushing. I think mast cells have an important role i hair loss and gut problems. Quercetin is a big help.

Is 400mg daily enough to stop mast cell release? Also, I usually take all my AO's together (quercitin, res, curcumin, Egcg etc) How often do you use quercetin (daily dosage?)

To be honest, I'm not that clear on the different types of 5-ar or how the flavanoids inhibit them. Honestly, I'm not sure the scientific world is either. It would be helpful to know the affinity of quercetin for the 5-ar enzyme. The half-life is also important, which tends be to pretty long for quercetin: around 16-17 hrs. So if the affinity is strong enough, then taking the proper dose of quercetin should definitely lead to a reduction in DHT, if it is found in all of the body's tissues.

Now, as far as how much DHT supression occurs depending on whether its type I or II 5-ar, again, this is difficult to tell. If you can find information on the relative proportions of body DHT attributable to one or the other, I'd love to know. If we consider the anti-5ar drugs like finasteride or dutasteride, we know finasteride acts ONLY only 5-ar II, and it reduces whole body DHT by around 70%. Dut acts on both type I and II, and it reduces whole body DHT by around 95%. This would seem to point to the fact that type II has a larger role in DHT balance, and this isn't surprising being that it is concentrated in the testes.

Sizzling, you are like me in that you want an absolute answer when it comes to this kind of thing (i.e. "take this much of A and reduce enzyme B by X%) Unfortunately, its rarely that simple especially with the plant compounds like the pigments. Despite all of the fancy language in the studies you'll read, science still really doesn't know why these things do what they do. With quercetin, I would have to imagine the overall anti-DHT effects would be marginal at best. But we've got to remember, its not absolutely about total DHT either. Where quercetin has a big role to play is as an immuno-modulator. It reduces several kinds of inflammatory cytokines, prevents cellular apoptosis by TNF-a, and direct inhibits inflammatory prostaglandings (probably a function of stabilizing mast cells). And it also seems to have the effect of increasing numbers of mitochondria.

As far as safety, there haven't been any adverse side effects demonstrated in humans even at several gram doses per day. I generally take between 500 mg - 1000 mg per day, and prefer the latter. I've found it helps with allergies at this dose. But I also take it combined with EGCG, zinc, and B6. All of the members of this combo are beneficial for lowering histamine/stabilizing mast cells so I can't be positive which is having the larger impact out of the whole crew.

Thanks for your answers as always Anthony. Very knowledgeable and well put.

To simplify, anything that I have been on that has blocked androgens or reduced DHT has seemed to give me pretty quick onset of sexual sides (libido lowered, performance problems, etc). So I become very wary. Everything that you have explain is making sense though.

Im just hoping that quercitin topically, however much DHT it may reduce (if any at all), wont give me sexual sides. Really hoping! lol, and thats my reason for all my questions, reassurance

Reducing DHT is not really important. It's the reducing levels of 5-AR that are (rhyme not intended).
The real aim is to reduce levels of 5-alpha reductase by way of natural reduction (not forced reduction by poisoning an enzyme) or in the case of Beta Sitosterol by reducing cholesterol absorption in the gut (okay if in small doses for young people, not much of any advantage in those who are getting older...we need cholesterol).

DHT is inversely correlated with balding...In other words, a low serum DHT is not good.

Additional information:

http://hairevo.com/shop/content/18-the-testosterone-paradox

Natural ways involve some plant and/or sea derived antioxidants (which naturally improve oxidation reduction) and managing prostaglandins such as krill oil. This also reduces 5-AR.

Getting back to the subject at hand...that being Quercetin.

It's not a worry at all. Unlike FDA (Federal Death Assocation) approved poisons, quercetin offers a lot of benefits without undesirable side-effects.

Not only does it attenuate histamine release and help prevent excessive inflammation and congestion, it also modulates cortisol, prevents hyperuricemia (elevated uric acid) and keeps the kidneys and liver in better health...plus much more.

Little confused on the DHT thing, always thought it was directly implicated in the miniaturization process.

Anyways, you guys have made it pretty clear that quercitin shouldnt be a problem and is actually positive.

I guess my brain is still trying to understand how something that has androgen receptor blocking/5ar reducing qualities wont cause sexual sides, as every other natural substance that possesses these qualities has for me. I guess because it is not potent enough to cause this.

Either way, you have both said you havent had any kind of sexual sides so I guess I will give it a go.

sizzlinghairs wrote:Little confused on the DHT thing, always thought it was directly implicated in the miniaturization process.

Anyways, you guys have made it pretty clear that quercitin shouldnt be a problem and is actually positive.

I guess my brain is still trying to understand how something that has androgen receptor blocking/5ar reducing qualities wont cause sexual sides, as every other natural substance that possesses these qualities has for me. I guess because it is not potent enough to cause this.

Either way, you have both said you havent had any kind of sexual sides so I guess I will give it a go.

What causes sides is how the 5-AR is inhibited. The way that Quercetin works is drastically different than finasteride.
One works with the body, the other works against a normal process.