Question about NIACIN for Immortal! Please help!

Hey immortal, so im taking a supplement with 40 mg of niacin in it. Its for overall health as well as hair health. I have heard from different places that niacin can be beneficial for hair.

I recently read a post from another hairloss forum with 2 links in it. One explain how "PGD2" is bad for hair and the other says how niacin can trigger PGD2.

Here is the post:

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"so i have just read this article ->
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/0...tern-baldness/

and it seems as if pgd2 is bad for hair.

ive also read this study -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1373750


it sums up that niacin increases pgd2, i wonder what effect this would have on the efficacy ....."

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The thing is, I have been noticing from taking this supplement that my hair quality has seemingly improved, but I just want to make sure that it wont be negative for me down the line. In those studies it seems if they are reffering to the niacin "flush" which is from doses of 500mg+, but I am not sure if PGD2 release is from lower doses as well.

Hoping for some feedback from that brain of yours! Thanks in advance.

sizzlinghairs wrote:Hey immortal, so im taking a supplement with 40 mg of niacin in it. Its for overall health as well as hair health. I have heard from different places that niacin can be beneficial for hair.

I recently read a post from another hairloss forum with 2 links in it. One explain how "PGD2" is bad for hair and the other says how niacin can trigger PGD2.

Here is the post:

----------

"so i have just read this article ->
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/0...tern-baldness/

and it seems as if pgd2 is bad for hair.

ive also read this study -> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1373750


it sums up that niacin increases pgd2, i wonder what effect this would have on the efficacy ....."

---------

The thing is, I have been noticing from taking this supplement that my hair quality has seemingly improved, but I just want to make sure that it wont be negative for me down the line. In those studies it seems if they are reffering to the niacin "flush" which is from doses of 500mg+, but I am not sure if PGD2 release is from lower doses as well.

Hoping for some feedback from that brain of yours! Thanks in advance.

Niacin therapy alone could possible be a problem, however only in isolation.

As mentioned in similar threads on this subject, taking something such as Krill oil (or other source of Omega-3 fatty acids), or taking Quercetin can offset the PGD2. If still concerned you can take niacinamide, which does not cause a flush (which will not promote PGD2), and offers skin benefits.

Int J Immunopathol Pharmacol. 2008 Jul-Sep;21(3):509-14.
A quercetin containing supplement reduces niacin-induced flush in humans.
Kalogeromitros D, Makris M, Chliva C, Aggelides X, Kempuraj D, Theoharides TC.

Allergy Clinical Research Center, Allergy Section, Attikon Hospital, University of Athens Medical School, Athens, Greece.

Coronary artery disease is associated with increased serum levels of cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL, but low levels of HDL. The most potent agent capable of reversing this trend is the vitamin nicotinic acid (niacin). However, compliance even with extended-release preparations and addition of acetylsalicylic acid (ASA) is hampered by the development of a feeling of erythema and burning ("flush"), especially on the face. We recently showed that the natural flavonoids quercetin and luteolin can eliminate "flush", as well as inhibit both niacin-induced plasma prostaglandin D2 (PGD2) and serotonin increase in an animal model. We conducted a pilot clinical study in humans. Four normal male subjects received (a) 1 g immediate release niacin either alone or after (b) the dietary formulation (Algonot-plus) containing 150 mg quercetin per capsule. Subjects completed a visual scale (1 = no, 5 = worst response) symptom assessment. Erythema and burning sensation scores were both 4.75+/-0.50 and lasted for 3.63+/-1.11 hours. After Algonot-plus administration, both scores were reduced to 2.5+/-0.58 and lasted only for 1.68+/-0.70 hours. Quercetin also inhibited methylnicotinate-induced human mast cell PGD2 release. These preliminary results suggest that quercetin could reduce niacin-induced "flush" in humans.

little confused.. my main question is, if im taking a dose as low as 40 mg which has never caused anything close to a flush, should i still be concerned?

Is the PDG2 directly related to the flush or will niacin @ low dosage w/o the flush still trigger PGD2?

Thanks again!

I'm not certain. However, certainly a low-dose is less of a possible factor, and whether any dose of niacin is a real problem is also unknown. The body may have other mechanisms to deal with this type of PDG2 release.

Generally speaking PDG2 release is common when there is untamed AA (Arachidonic acid), or rather from sources of non-grass-fed beef. Omega-3 fatty acids counteract the inflammation from Arachidonic acid.

thanks again.. Is niacin an aradonic acid?

Answer no.

This subject in general is actually quite old (several years) in the natural hair loss community so to speak.

So with all of this new attention on PDG2, I should say right off that this is far from anything remarkable or novel in any way.

PDG2 is merely just one of many factors.

Here is a basic background on PDG2 and how it involves Omega-6 fatty acid (AA).

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000177

More info here: https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t7262-prostaglandin-d2-inhibits-hair-growth-and-is-elevated-in-bald-scalp-of-men-with-androgenetic-alopecia

Hey immortal, thanks for your help!

Another quick question (dont want to say final as I cant say for sure), but I am taking coq10 w/ 5 mg biopirene, this is quercetin right?

sizzlinghairs - I'm afraid not. Here is an example (this is what I take)
http://www.iherb.com/MRM-Quercetin-500-mg-60-Veggie-Caps/12059?at=hil335

Oh ok, thanks.

Just one last one here, unrelated, but when taking vitamins is it ok to combine all of them together and take at once? (provided they dont contraindicate eachother and are at the correct times of day)

Or would it be better to take one, wait say 30 sec-1min, then take the other?

It's fine to combine them. Have a look at this for more information.

Thanks immort. Jeesh, more and more questions keep on popping up

Just had another one.. How much quercetin or omega-3 would u reccomend getting to block the pgd2 response from 40mg niacin? In your opinion, would these doses be blocking the pgd2 repsonse completely?

edit* And does quercetin or Omega-3s have any negative effect on anything such as DHT?


Thanks!

CausticSymmetry wrote:It's fine to combine them. Have a look at this for more information.

I forgot to include the link:

http://healthyfixx.com/21/choosing-the-best-multivitamin

I don’t know how this is all connected, but I do know that the best way to tame or even PREVENT a niacin flush is to eat a clove or two of raw garlic. I found this out by trial and error, but it really came in handy one day when I accidentally took 1000mg of flush-niacin before work. Normally I would take 500mg and light on fire, so this was going to be bad… However, I remembered that whenever I ate garlic the flush was always minimal.

I downed about five cloves of raw garlic and I didn’t turn red in the slightest. I didn’t even get the tingling sensations that happen before you turn red. I have no idea why, but garlic destroys the niacin flush.

Hey immortal, sorry to ask so many questions on this.. Don't know if u saw my last question, but I was wondering what u think a good dose would be to block Pgd2 from 40mg niacin?

Also wondering, do u think pgd2 lasts for the entire half life of niacin or only in a small burst when first taking it?

Thanks again!!

sizzlinghairs wrote:Hey immortal, sorry to ask so many questions on this.. Don't know if u saw my last question, but I was wondering what u think a good dose would be to block Pgd2 from 40mg niacin?

Also wondering, do u think pgd2 lasts for the entire half life of niacin or only in a small burst when first taking it?

Thanks again!!

I'm not sure and probably maybe of little importance, here is why.

As mentioned on other threads, the whole concern of PGD2 is extremely over blown. I very much doubt that taking niacin will negatively impact hair at all. Why? because deductive reasoning doesn't apply to physiology in the body. 1 + 1 doesn't always equal 2 in physiology or biochemistry, it often involves very complex signaling pathways and this where most get quite confused when looking studies.

Also, PGD2 is one of just dozens of factors, which are governed by dozens of other variables.

Concerning PGD2, I think a better question is why would someone who is prone to balding develop higher levels of PGD2 in the first place. This has been discussed a number of years ago, and is only a matter of intake of good vs bad oils.

Vegetable oils which have been processed, (refined) and/or cooked/heated will increase PGD2. Being that it's really difficult to avoid these entirely, one can counter act them by taking omega-3 fatty acids and increasing their consumption of real unadulterated Omega-3 fatty acids (uncooked or processed).