Re: Effect of Dieckol, a Component of Ecklonia cava, on the Promotion of Hair Growth

ghai018 Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:06 pm

Time to try my EC again that I've put away for about 9 months.

moby Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:42 pm

CausticSymmetry, you said that if you were only allowed one and only one item, you would pick EC. Okay, what if you were allowed to use only one item BESIDES EC?

RisingFist Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:08 pm

baller234 wrote:
RisingFist wrote:Is it okay to take both? I'm thinking of using Now Adams multi vitamin which contains saw palmetto

Inhibiting too much DHT isn't good....

True but there is only 160 mg of saw palmetto in 2 tablets taken twice per day makes it 320 mg. I'm not sure if that's a lot combined with EC but I'm wondering if it may help in my case.

CausticSymmetry Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:13 pm

What saw palmetto does and what ECE does is so far apart, they really do not belong together.

The devil is always in the details, and really discussing saw palmetto is akin to making fire with friction and heat instead of a butane lighter. It's not that saw palmetto is useless, only that its application is limited. Also, the dose will create different effects, and then there are age considerations and other factors.

In other words, it's simply not possible to provide absolutes. In my opinion saw palmetto is better left out of a regimen. A small amount of it won't hurt, however.

CausticSymmetry Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:14 pm

moby wrote:CausticSymmetry, you said that if you were only allowed one and only one item, you would pick EC. Okay, what if you were allowed to use only one item BESIDES EC?

Everyone is different, or to put it another way, everyone has unique weaknesses that will make their hair loss triggers more vulnerable than others. I'm not quite certain what #2 would be, because I can think of several that are about equal.

Directo Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:49 pm

Dosage is one in the morning and one at night, whether it is fibroboost or the whole herbal extract.

Taking more would help or would it change nothing?

CausticSymmetry Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:53 pm

That really depends on the person.

Shinobi Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:16 am

Sorry to write about this topic long time after, but i did an other research about ecklonia cava, that's why..

Anyway, the title is really mistaken: ECE at a concentration above 10ul / ml clearly decrease the proliferation of DPs, wich is really bad ! and no significant change under this concentration.. How can these scientifics say it increase the proliferation ? Do they work for Seanol or something ? And if we take a concentration lower than 10ul /ml, then there is absolutel no inhibition of 5AR... Rolling Eyes

CF Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:10 am

Shinobi wrote:Sorry to write about this topic long time after, but i did an other research about ecklonia cava, that's why..

Anyway, the title is really mistaken: ECE at a concentration above 10ul / ml clearly decrease the proliferation of DPs, wich is really bad ! and no significant change under this concentration.. How can these scientifics say it increase the proliferation ? Do they work for Seanol or something ? And if we take a concentration lower than 10ul /ml, then there is absolutel no inhibition of 5AR...

Do you have anything to reference your claim?

CausticSymmetry Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:16 am

It doesn't match.

I checked it out....the reference doesn't say decreases proliferation at above that concentration (which is not relevant in oral use). Further, the reference (which does not indicate a decrease), was a concentrated along with dimethyl sulfoxide at varying concentrations topically.

I've been using since 2006...I've tried it both topically and mostly internally.

Shinobi Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:06 pm

I'm speaking about the title of this topic. So we are speaking about this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3382810/

Please read again what I wrote, I said: their conclusion is actually FALSE or FAKE (maybe conflict of interest). In the both concentration lower than 10 micro l /ml we dont see any relevant possible improvement for hair, actually it could even make your hair thinner. Worst, there is no proportional improvement in DPs proliferation, it decrease the dp proliferation wich is totally bad for hair, at a range above the 10micro l /ml.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3382810/figure/f3-ijms-13-06407/

If the increase in dpc cells in low ecklonia cava dose is NOT relevant, above the 10, the decrease is impressive.

If someone know the correspondance (knowing that is in mice..) for mg / kg. It would be good.

After that, they say ECE decrease 5AR.. But now it's for value above the 30 and only few %.. It's start to be relevant only at dosage 100 micro l / ml.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3382810/figure/f5-ijms-13-06407/

ECE dont show any improvement in any other test for hair.

So please, dont say because of this study, ECE is great for hair.. actually it could be even worst to take it on a long period knowing his half life is upper to 36h (and not 12h as it's often say..)

Sorry for my English. Hope you understand everything, but just: be careful with ECE for hair

EDIT for caustic: dimethyl sulfoxide was only use to dissolve the molécules as dieckol alone. Not injected and even not used for my example as it's only ECE (not isolated molécules), so it's irrelevant in what i'm speaking.

CF Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:49 pm

Shinobi, forgive me if I'm wrong but I believe you were asking how many mg one would have to take to achieve a level of 100 μg/mL. Someone asked that question in the thread below. I have no idea if the answer provided is accurate.

https://immortalhair.forumotion.com/t8272p30-ecklonia-cava-as-effective-as-propecia-if-i-m-understanding-this-paper-correctly-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this

ppm

moby wrote:All I know is that at SOME DOSAGE point, both Propecia and EC block the same amount of 5AR. What is that point? Does anyone know? Please tell me

You could start at (body weight * 0.07 * 100) mg EC
The 0.07 factor gives your blood volume; and the 100 comes from your first graph (100 μg/mL EC)

Shinobi Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:09 pm

Thanks CF, but not sure about.. And we need also to check the concentration of ECE as 25/1 means 25 g or raw dried for 1 gram of the extract.. and also the phenolic content without polysacharide (Folin C could be not accurate)

Knowing that, ECE has been said that: "The effective dose of ECE for free radical scavenging is in the 10-20 µg/mL " so we are above the dangerous line for DPs cells AND lower than the effective dose to inhibit 5AR... Definitely we should be careful with this extract.. Is every body here get good result ? or some worse their hair condition ?

CF Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:42 pm

Thank you Shinobi. I have been taking it for about 1.5 years now, and I am slowly losing hair on my vertex and along my hairline.

Shinobi Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:05 am

You are welcome CF Wink

I would also be careful to R acide lipoic acid as I'm pretty sure it makes heart attack (lifespan reduction) if taken on a daily basis. And yes, even if it increases GSH.. study on mice confirm that lifespan could be reduce using this coumpound however their GSH was high. I can't imagin using an high potent ALA dietary supplement as bio-enhanced.. We clearly need to be careful with supplement, antioxydant often have also a pro oxydativ effect..

For your hair loss, I could advise you to take the parental fatty acid: flaxseed oïl + pumpkin oïl daily, rather than taken krill oïl

CausticSymmetry Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:47 am

Shinobi - I've been taking ECE since 2006 and lipoic acid steadily without interruption since 2004. People are usually surprised when they find out my age.

There's one problem with the study....it's on rats, which have a different type of antioxidant system. For example, oral NAC has been used with good safety on humans for several decades, however, in mice, it's not so kind.

This is important because, much like NAC (another antioxidant), how it behaves in rats is different than humans, so much so, that those results cannot be extrapolated. This is because their antioxidant system is very different than humans. However, if you add ALC (Acetyl L-Carnitine), you're likely to get a better result regardless.

Shinobi Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:55 am

Dear CS,

I totally agree with you. Some famous scientifics said they didnt liked the rats studies as they come from asia, and human been from africa.. We are so different from this species.

I just explained that we can't say ECE is good for hair, because of this study. Rather, because all the amount of study on different biological mechanism of action it already show, and continue to show at this day..

ECE behind it's low ORAC value (which means nothing because only in vitro test.. and for a ratio of 1 molecule per radical /s..) seems to even increase natural SOD, CAT and GSH in the body, even with administration of high glucose intake.. So we found back a novel mechanism of action.. not sure you already spoke about this.

CausticSymmetry Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:40 am

Shinobi - About ECE. I started taking it early on because of it's MMP-9 inhibition and its action on attenuated antiplasmin.
Also for the action on the Nrf2 pathway, COX-2, and some others...there's actually a bit of a long list.

Due to personal experience, I recommended it. In this case, the study on rats came out later.

Because of the Nrf2 pathway, it boosts the endogenous antioxidant enzymes so that the overall (indirect antioxidant effect) surpasses
the direct antioxidant effect. Unlike "direct" antioxidants such as vitamin C and E, "indirect" antioxidants our body's strongest antioxidant defense enzymes, such as glutathione and superoxide dismutase. The potency can be rather huge, when one considers vitamin C
can neutralize one free radical per molecule. However, certain plant extracts such as ecklonia cava, curcumin, resveratrol
and sulforaphane can activate a gene switching that occurs via the Nrf2/ARE pathway. This action can fight off millions of
free radicals per second.

The cellular mechanisms derived from certain plant substances that increase the body's production
of antioxidant enzymes are considered the most powerful body defenses against toxins. In addition, some plant
substances can "switch" back on, genes that allow antioxidant activity in organ systems that maybe are switched "off"
for environmental or genetic reasons. Therefore, these plant extract can act as epigenetic modifiers. Epigenetic means
"above genes," as to the ability to modify their expression.

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