Any GAPS diet followers out there? / Thoughts on GAPS

Hey guys,

I've been following the forum since maybe 05-06 or so. A lot more traffic nowadays!!

I just started the gaps intro diet yesterday. I'm hoping to improve my adhd anxiety and depression symptoms. I've put HL on the back burner because the truth is even at 28 and aggressive it's small potatoes compared to how ill I feel from a mental perspective. I just want to stop the negative thoughts, procrastination, anxiety, and be able to focus on my school work like a normal human being. It doesn't allow me to operate at or near my highest level (probably 60%...missed deadlines, late fees, traffic tickets, poor grades, termination from employment). I want to leave class IV narcotics as a last resort as I really hate big pharma.

Any other natural alternatives for the above symptoms? Has any one had success with biurnal beats? Supplements?

I really believe healing the gut can help mental state what say you guys?

http://180degreehealth.com/2012/04/gaps-talk-with-east-west-healing-and-performance

listen to the interview....

I'm listening now but to be honest I'm not a big fan of Josh Rubin. Does Matt Stone have a diet that treats psychiatric disorders? Is he a neurologist and then a nutritionist? Has anyone/adults come off of their meds with conditions such as schizophrenia, adhd, dyspraxia etc etc on matt stone?? If so please let me know.

The goal of the diet is to improve the mental state through healing the gut.

I am always suspicious of claims to cure psychiatric ailments with diet. It is predicated on a certain view about the nature of mind, that mind is nothing but body, and it ignores the social, and frankly the psychological. It'd be awesome if changing the mind and negative "conditions" associated were as easy as changing the contents of the gut, but I really doubt it. Surely changing your body state will change your mind state, but there are simply other factors as well, such as habits, ways of thinking, your wider relations to the world and other people, and so on. There levels of organization with any complex system, and the social and psychological or mental are just as real as the microbiological. You can address phenemonon at those levels without needing to go all the way to molecules (as is the interpretation of biological psychology and psychopharmacology, or even lots of alternative medicine / orthomolecular approaches). You do not address everything bottom up, but also top down. I have links on non-pharmacological treatments for schizophrenia and psychosis on my other computer if you want I can give them to. They are psychological, not nutritional approaches however. Please, don't interpret my post as being dismissive of looking for ways to address any issues you have. I do empathize as I experience significant depression and anxiety (just got rid of the medications since they didnt work over years lol). I have the issues with the late fees as well lol. You wouldnt believe how many banks I have changed, and how many arguments Ive got in on the phone with bank managers over their unwillingness to mitigate fees. If you come accross anything that you think works on those things, let me know!

Of course, subjective evaluations are always questionable but I do think that my mood is better when supplementing with krill oil. I also notice improved reflexes and hand-eye coordination, suggesting that krill oil increases overall mental alertness. I'm less clumsy, I drop less stuff, etc. I have ADHD, and since I was a little kid I've had a problem with absent-mindedness.

Coffee helps increase alertness and motivation levels. Regular coffee consumption has been linked to decreased incidence of depression. Another mechanism of action might be caffeine-induced peristalsis.

I've noticed a correlation between GI distress and severity of depression/anxiety symptoms. Lots of threads on this forum about how the gut functions as a second brain. There's a bidirectional feedback system through which the gut can influence mental state and vice versa. For example, the probiotic strain l. rhamnosus can suppress anxiety by sending signals to the brain through the vagus nerve. You can read about this here:
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/08/mind-altering-bugs.html

While it's difficult and time-consuming to repair your gut, stress can rapidly undo your progress.

Exercise, in particular weight-training has helped me. Aside from improving self-image, I feel like my body is more resistant to fatigue.

I am always suspicious of claims to cure psychiatric ailments with diet. It is predicated on a certain view about the nature of mind, that mind is nothing but body, and it ignores the social, and frankly the psychological. It'd be awesome if changing the mind and negative "conditions" associated were as easy as changing the contents of the gut, but I really doubt it. Surely changing your body state will change your mind state, but there are simply other factors as well, such as habits, ways of thinking, your wider relations to the world and other people, and so on. There levels of organization with any complex system, and the social and psychological or mental are just as real as the microbiological. You can address phenemonon at those levels without needing to go all the way to molecules (as is the interpretation of biological psychology and psychopharmacology, or even lots of alternative medicine / orthomolecular approaches). You do not address everything bottom up, but also top down. I have links on non-pharmacological treatments for schizophrenia and psychosis on my other computer if you want I can give them to. They are psychological, not nutritional approaches however. Please, don't interpret my post as being dismissive of looking for ways to address any issues you have. I do empathize as I experience significant depression and anxiety (just got rid of the medications since they didnt work over years lol). I have the issues with the late fees as well lol. You wouldnt believe how many banks I have changed, and how many arguments Ive got in on the phone with bank managers over their unwillingness to mitigate fees. If you come accross anything that you think works on those things, let me know!

This is a good post. Depression and anxiety have been defining aspects of my life for more than a decade now, and dealing with it is hard.

Some things that I've been trying:
1. Mental arithmetic. Helps keep my mind from wandering. Furthermore I'm sure it improves my general analytical/quantitative abilities.
2. Breathing techniques.
3. Goal-oriented approach to life. I like what jdp said in another thread about how to pursue goals. If you have a goal, don't tell anyone about it - just pursue it.

I tried the SCD diet years back trying to fix mood and cognitive problems. My digestive problems were insignificant, the only issue was persistent acne. Initially it killed off my acne, but my previously manageable fatigue became much worse and I became extremely sensitive to foods that weren't a problem before. Cognition is notably worse now, though mood is about the same.

There's another 180 article on GAPS as well: http://180degreehealth.com/2012/04/the-gaps-diet

I would take Matt Stone's writing seriously before diving into the GAPS diet. I have only managed to worsen my situation following restrictive diets, though the initial damage was years of antidepressants. GAPS could work for you, but personally I wish someone had warned me so I could look into less extreme alternatives first.

Some people may have psychological issues, but in my personal experience my problems would appear not to be. I spent a number of years banging my head against my mood and cognitive problems using psychological techniques and pushing myself. Then one day I read about iodine supplementation online, so I tried some. My mood switched on like a light. I wanted to leave the house, look people in the eye and just be around people. Now, after a number of weeks the effect wore off, so perhaps it was the placebo effect that had eluded me all those years before. But that period was such a breakthrough for me: body => mind.

The only thing I have found to cope with depression is just to take a step back and think along the lines of: Some deficiency/inflammation/whatever has sent my brain chemistry into a tailspin. Because of this, every thought I have is going to lead into darkness. Although every now and then a moment of balance will allow me to see things clearly. I can't fight them, but I musn't become attached to the dark thoughts; try to observe them for what they are. My body will find balance again eventually.

The above is easy for me to say as my depressive episodes rarely last longer than 24 hours, and my mother who I live with is understanding. It's something I wish the hordes of psychiatrists had told me, instead of treating me like some lab rat, studying me while my life fell apart.

I have yet to fully embrace Matt Stone's diet, so I can't speak for its effectiveness. He comments on sensible exercise too, fwiw. I'm looking into specific deficiencies as well like glutathione/methylation depletion, zinc and B6 (Pyroluria/HPU/KPU). I wish I had more in the way of actual answers...

Overall I definitely buy into the idea that if you focus on your metabolism first then your gut has its best chance to repair itself despite offending foods. Whereas focusing on cutting out all problem foods, you risk tanking your metabolism and healing to boot.

Lurx wrote:I have yet to fully embrace Matt Stone's diet, so I can't speak for its effectiveness.

Could you explain what "Matt Stone's diet" is? I read Matt Stone's stuff infrequently over the past 1-2 years or so, I recently went back and been reading it and he is suggesting eating junk food? He says increasing the metabolism is more important than the foods you actually eat, would it not be better if he did this with things other than junk food?

Lurx- that's unfortunate to read but I have to give this a shot before I try other methods/meds. Thanks for the input and I too was reading Iodine is deficient in most adhd and other mental "disorders" and is on my "to try list" but can I get on an Iodine regimen with amalgams? I already seem to be getting a deeper sleep after about 5 days. If it helps kids with autism maybe it can help me? Well, I won't get my hopes up but I will stay in the fight.

Imprisoned- yes!! thank you for making me feel like I'm perhaps on the right track. Krill Oil is actually very beneficial especially with the symptoms I've had. Neptune is great, have you tried Mega Red? They have it at costco for a decent price and was curious if this was an effective brand. I still feel my body doesn't make use of supplements as well as it should, therefore I haven't been spending the extra cash lately and just taking what I have stocked up at the house. But let's be real though.... all these years of junk food/fast food and I'm supposed to believe my gut is in a healthy state? I think not.

I remember having stomach pains and gas as a kid and being unable to control mood. I used to love eating fermented veggies, oranges from the tree with salt on them but also Managed to eat a lot of burger king and pizza hut. No one would tell me to eat the healthy things...it was my body... I would go out on my own and find them on my own as a kid. Yes and finding and implementing coping strategies is pretty big. As well as knowing triggers....such as little sleep. If I barely sleep I am a mess the next day (like a pms woman sometimes lol)....what about you guys? Yes and weight training is beneficial as well I know first hand was on a pretty tight schedule and was consistent with great results until I hurt my shoulder and the recovery process has been a PITA its been 4 months now out of the gym and still in pain. Funny you mention the weight room because not being able to go lately has contributed to the depression.



Some things that I've been trying:
1. Mental arithmetic. Helps keep my mind from wandering. Furthermore I'm sure it improves my general analytical/quantitative abilities. Real math? I'm in Calculus and have a hard time staying with 8-10 step problems or copying down the lecture. The odd thing is when I was a child I had top grades and was the first one done copying down the info.
2. Breathing techniques. Very much agreed.
3. Goal-oriented approach to life. I like what jdp said in another thread about how to pursue goals. If you have a goal, don't tell anyone about it - just pursue it.......True that.



How exactly is this diet "ant-metabolism"? I'm able to eat carrots and other veggies during the intro plus fermented dairy. Once I get off the Intro Diet I can sort of do a Ray Peat version of the GAPS diet. Which I'm actually excited about because my stress levels went way down on the ray peat diet.

Funny you bring up JDP because if I'm not mistaken he was a big advocate of broths and believed in their healing properties. Maybe if he's still around he'll chime in here. Also, Caustic told me a few years ago on a thread here that depression is due to the hpta/ gut axis and I remember when he told me that I was like....fuck....how in the world am I going to repair that....what the hell is that? Well the journey has begun !


Lurx do you remember what foods you were eating during SCD which led to your fatigue?

I have followed Matt for a while, and then took a break. I came back to see him on his "junk food" program. He looks like absolute shit. He's put on a noticeable amount of fat, and his hair went right to hell. I'm not saying this to simply make a superficial claim. I'm saying this because the diet he's claiming is radically boosting his metabolism is obviously having negative effects, if your are of the belief that your aesthetics reflect your internal state of health. He keeps saying his metabolism is super high because he will overheat and sweat for no reason. Well I can tell you from personal experience that I would experience that often when I was at my unhealthiest, fattest, and most metabolically deranged. His idea that consuming a ton of sugar (listening to your body, haha) lowers cortisol, increases glucose clearance, and somehow increases insulin sensitivity is a joke and it shows.

sweating for no reason is going to be the result of a health problem not "super high metabolism". dude sounds like a bullshitter.

Sorry to further the derailment, NYJets. If a mod wants to hopefully they can split the thread...

@tooyoung
The junk food seems to be a new thing. I guess he has just found you can get most of the effects of increased metabolism with the least effort this way, plus it's gotta snap people out of food paranoia. I have no problem with whole foods, so I don't see the appeal personally.

These are the basics as I understand them, though he seems to contradict some recently:

• Restrict exercise for a few weeks. Reintroduce once your temps are up.
  
• Eat early on rising, to fullness and repeat when you want.
  
• Potentially eat slightly beyond satiation for a few weeks.
  
• Taper off meal size into the afternoon.
  
• Nap if you're tired and go to bed early.
  
• Keep hydrated, but avoid having to pee all the time.
  
• Don't restrict fat or carbohydrates, if you had done previously then indulge more in that macro.
  
• No real concern about wholegrains; recommends them for the butyrate.
  
• Big on calories. Don't worry about body weight, some gains will be from lean mass.
  
• Low PUFA.
  
• Adequate protein.
  
• Plenty of vegetables.
  
• Avoid stimulants, recreational drugs etc.
  

I'm sure there are plenty of failures with this approach. Either way I've had it with miracle diets.

@NYJets
A Ray Peat angle on GAPS seems like a good idea. Having metabolism in mind rather than waiting for the gut to heal everything is key imo.

I basically followed the online SCD and GAPS food lists. Without warning I became intolerant to dairy on the diet, that screwed things up quite a bit. To be fair it is more paleo's influence that made me continue doing silly things with food.

@anthonyspencer54
He does look like shit, but he says he feels good and he doesn't care. I respect him for that. Plenty of people are worrying about maintaining body composition when showing signs HPA distress; I guess they are two ends of the "listen to your body" spectrum.

I don't think a particular guru's hairline is always representative, but it certainly isn't encouraging.

Lurx,

You do make a good point about the hairline thing. While I do feel somebody's outside can be a good indicator of their insides, there is the potential for huge observation bias here. Just because someone looks good, they might simply be a genetic outlier, and fitness does not equal health. And to the hair point, you're right it isn't encouraging, but we might just be making a bad attribution because we all feel so negatively about hair loss. No one is questioning Mercola's health, and yes his baldness was beyond recovery years ago. But for Matt, perhaps he really is improving his health, but some point about hair loss we still don't understand is not allowing him to recoup the hair. I'm sure there are folks here who would attest that they believe they've improved their overall health dramatically, but haven't stopped hair loss progression.

Has anyone tried Iodine with Amalgam fillings?

Hey LurxDerailer =),

I really wanted a thread on GAPS without Matt Stone or Josh Rubin being mentioned but it seems to be a good discussion so far....are we really discussing junk food though? If you want to rev your "metabolism" hit the weight room hard with compound movement(my favs are dips, incline press, squats, pull ups, clean and press etc) 3-4 times a week for no more than 45 min. Then eat eat eat eat every few hrs red meat baby potatoes, oranges, sourdough bread, good cheeses, eggs/onions with coconut oil and baby potatoes, organic milk and all types of other nutrient dense foods.

hate wieghts? Start sprinting.

So it seems as though you never did the intro GAPS diet?! It is pretty essential from my readings on people who have experienced with this diet. Like I said earlier I'm not a big fan of anyone who associates with Josh Rubin...I'm sure he's a great guy and all but when it comes to my mental and physical health I'll take what he says with a grain of salt. I feel like the only thing Matt Stone does is try and critique others. I'm definitely not going back to junk food thanks though Matt.

@AnthonySpencer,

The funny thing is I've done what Matt is doing before by coincidence and just listening to my body and trying to overfeed it to grow.... did it for quite a while!! It works out pretty well if your body is in an anabolic state or primed for an anabolic state I should say. I lost fat and put on muscle but I was working my ass off in the gym with heavy weights. I ate a lot of the foods I mentioned above but still had anxiety and depression issues. I'm feeling less so far 6 days on the intro gaps diet and am on 4 hours sleep something I couldn't do 5 days ago. I'm sure my energy levels will be taking a hit here soon but I just have to remember to use more squash, carrots, etc in the broths and eat more fermented yogurt with organic raw honey.

I just looked up the GAPS intro and I pretty much followed it to the letter. I guess I did some hybrid of GAPS and SCD, I don't remember exactly.

As long as you are aware of the downsides and don't get attached to any ideology, I don't think it's such a big deal.

I don't have amalgams, but I think iodine only supplies the body's natural detox pathways, not force-feed it like ALA does. So its probably much safer by comparison. Just watch out for cofactor-nutrients becoming deficient, what some call "detox".

I see so those who feel the effects of "detox" in regards to iodine aren't supplementing enough selenium and vitamin c? any others? ordering the iodine tonight.

Maybe other things, but generally I think so. Most detox symptoms overlap, but certain symptoms are nutrient specific. Unfortunately its easier to just write it off as generalised detox. But mostly I am just talking out of my ass