So... does anyone else agree with me that infection of hair follicles is THE cause of AGA? How to control it?

I really don't want to go off down this tangent.. I mainly wanted this thread to be about discussing the (possible) role of infection in MPB, and also how best to kill it.

On that note I'm actually quite keen to see what happens in the next week as I managed to pick up 100 grams of pure Pau D'Arco bark (powdered I think/hope!) off ebay for only £2.73, which is a frickin' bargain when in capsules you'd be talking at least £12 for that kind of amount.

Erm, I'll give it a bash (hopefully I'll try to just swirl it in some water 3 times a day and down it) as well as my GSE/oregano rotation and if it works well I'll make it part of the rotation

I really hope it gives me more die-off as right now I'm getting quite a lot but I don't really know what is doing the majority of it!!

Hoppipolla wrote:
I really hope it gives me more die-off as right now I'm getting quite a lot but I don't really know what is doing the majority of it!!

Androgens.

ViolatedBird wrote:

Hoppipolla wrote:
I really hope it gives me more die-off as right now I'm getting quite a lot but I don't really know what is doing the majority of it!!

Androgens.

No.. Candida die-off not dying follicles. I know if I get Candida die-off when I use the loo.. lol

As I say, I believe androgens make the area (the head) more susceptible by increasing sebum, but it's bacteria or in my case fungus (Candida) that actually kill the hair follicles.

@ViolatedBird:

Great post my friend. Looking at it this way makes a great deal of sense to me. I guess for me, the confusion with many of these issues always stems from the "chicken and egg" dilemma. But intuitively, the dynamic you mentioned makes complete sense, and it also supports the study I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Many people will argue that evolutionarily, baldness is a phenotypical expression meant to influence sexual selection negatively as it indicates poor genetics (metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, etc.). But if these conditions indirectly affect MPB, by subsequently altering DHT/Free T/Estrogen levels, then baldness really isn't an indicator of any of these, but only of a sensitivity to androgens. So is it possible that the reason that the gene/s responsible for balding have not been eliminated from the population (from being sexually selected against) is because at one point (or perhaps even still despite societal/cultural influences) it was selected FOR as a signal of virility, dominance, maturity, and reproductive value?

I'm aware that the x-chromosome could potentially carry this gene (I'm not positive on this) so really the female could be perpetuating the gene/s without ever expressing it. Despite this, I guess what I'm considering as a possibility is: for those genetically susceptible to balding, could it be that balding is really just evolution's way of phenotypically signaling reproductive value? Or am I blowing my own horn, ?

Hey Hopi!

What have you had success with so far - in terms of growth?

gbp2000 wrote:Hey Hopi!

What have you had success with so far - in terms of growth?

Yo!

And no nothing yet, as I say I believe it's the dandruff (Candida) that's killing my hair follicles, so as far as I can work out I can either try to rid myself of Candida systemically (as I've been trying) or try to kill it topically with rotated antifungals and stuff. Because I'm starting to realize it may take quite a while to balance my Candida systemically again, I'm considering rotating GSE and maybe tea tree, optionally mixed into witch hazel (for increased astringent strength) to kill it topically. Hm...

I didn't realise Dandruff and Candida were closely connected - other than being yeast I guess that says it all though, at the very least they spring from a common source.

Hoppipolla wrote:rdkml - thanks for the great info!

Also as a side note I have a new housemate with almost EXACTLY the same symptoms / health situation as me. IBS, gas/bloating, probiotics made it better, MPB, etc. I'm still pretty sure Candida is the pivotal culprit, but bacterial imbalances are on my radar too. Parasites I find harder to believe, particularly as he said he gets extreme bloating (stomach goes out) after things like pizza, which doesn't sound like parasites to me! It's all on my radar as I say, but personally I reckon we both just made Candida go fungal >.<

EDIT -- Woot loads more fungal die-off and stuff! lol

I have (had) the same sensitive stomach as you. I'm almost symptom free now, since started taking:
Digestive enzymes (best one against intestinal parasites seems to be ficin -ficin anthelmintic) ...On wikipedia you can find that "ascaris secrete a series of inhibitors to target digestive and immune-related host proteases".
And Black Walnut Hull Tincture+Wormwood before meals.

Actually, the best all natural antiparasitic treatment, based of what I found on curezone and anywhere else seems to be digestive enzymes (ficin included) and Barefoot Herbalist De-wormer, followed by liver flushes, etc, in parallel with bowel cleanse. Don't know if it really works, CS said is not worth it, but some people here (rdkml, GreenPower) got very good results after killing parasites with rife machines...

My aim is a little different, since what I am trying to kill is a little different, but the method to the madness is actually pretty similar. I like this product. While this does kill parasites, the aim is neutralize iron-dependent pathogens.

http://www.iherb.com/Nutricology-TriBiotics-90-Veggie-Caps/11778?at=hil335

abc123 wrote:I think keeping Iron low (avoidance, coffee, blood donation) would be a great way to lower if not eliminate the infectious burden.

Some site saying that iron actually helps hair:
Iron Supplementation and Hair Loss Treatment

This article reinforces what has been stated by several published researchers over the years, most notably Dr. Rushton. That is, that that virtually all treatments for hair loss in both men and women are more efficacious with iron supplementation, whether you are "iron deficient" or not. Dr. Rushton maintains that this effect is dramatically enhanced when iron is used in conjunction with vitamin C and L-Lysine.

May 17, 2006If you're losing hair, you may have an iron deficiency.

A review of 40 years of research shows that iron deficiency has a much closer link to hair loss than most doctors realize. It may be the key to restoring hair growth, Cleveland Clinic dermatologists find.

"We believe that treatment for hair loss is enhanced when iron deficiency, with or without anemia, is treated," Leonid Benjamin Trost, MD; Wilma Fowler Bergfeld, MD; and Ellen Calogeras, RD, MPH, write in the May issue of the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology.

It's a controversial issue. Not every study shows a link between iron deficiency and hair loss. Trost says there's not enough hard evidence -- yet -- to make iron-deficiency screening a routine procedure for people with hair loss.

But study researcher Bergfeld has been doing this for years. And she's finding that whatever the cause of hair loss -- for both women and men -- having too little iron in the blood makes it worse.

"What Dr. Bergfeld has found in decades of experience, is when she treats patients for iron deficiency --even in the absence of anemia -- it can maximize their ability to regrow hair," Trost tells WebMD. "It is not the silver bullet for baldness, but it can definitely help maximize how a patient regrows hair."

The Cleveland Clinic isn't alone in doing this. George Cotsarelis, director of the University of Pennsylvania Hair and Scalp Clinic, has studied iron supplementation in women with various forms of hair loss.

"From our clinic's experience, it is clear to me that if you replenish hair-loss patients' iron stores with iron supplements, they are more likely to regrow hair, or at least stop hair shedding," Cotsarelis tells WebMD. "And they don't have to be anemic. That is the biggest mistake doctors make."

http://www.hairloss-research.org/LinkUpdateCayenne1-08.html

Espio wrote:... With group animals, nature will "sabotage" individual animals if it strengthens the group as a whole.

funny... you should read The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins for the actual explanation of evolutionary change. great book and very informative.

mihai wrote:

abc123 wrote:I think keeping Iron low (avoidance, coffee, blood donation) would be a great way to lower if not eliminate the infectious burden.

Some site saying that iron actually helps hair:
Iron Supplementation and Hair Loss Treatment

This article reinforces what has been stated by several published researchers over the years, most notably Dr. Rushton. That is, that that virtually all treatments for hair loss in both men and women are more efficacious with iron supplementation, whether you are "iron deficient" or not. Dr. Rushton maintains that this effect is dramatically enhanced when iron is used in conjunction with vitamin C and L-Lysine.

May 17, 2006If you're losing hair, you may have an iron deficiency.

A review of 40 years of research shows that iron deficiency has a much closer link to hair loss than most doctors realize. It may be the key to restoring hair growth, Cleveland Clinic dermatologists find.

"We believe that treatment for hair loss is enhanced when iron deficiency, with or without anemia, is treated," Leonid Benjamin Trost, MD; Wilma Fowler Bergfeld, MD; and Ellen Calogeras, RD, MPH, write in the May issue of the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology.

It's a controversial issue. Not every study shows a link between iron deficiency and hair loss. Trost says there's not enough hard evidence -- yet -- to make iron-deficiency screening a routine procedure for people with hair loss.

But study researcher Bergfeld has been doing this for years. And she's finding that whatever the cause of hair loss -- for both women and men -- having too little iron in the blood makes it worse.

"What Dr. Bergfeld has found in decades of experience, is when she treats patients for iron deficiency --even in the absence of anemia -- it can maximize their ability to regrow hair," Trost tells WebMD. "It is not the silver bullet for baldness, but it can definitely help maximize how a patient regrows hair."

The Cleveland Clinic isn't alone in doing this. George Cotsarelis, director of the University of Pennsylvania Hair and Scalp Clinic, has studied iron supplementation in women with various forms of hair loss.

"From our clinic's experience, it is clear to me that if you replenish hair-loss patients' iron stores with iron supplements, they are more likely to regrow hair, or at least stop hair shedding," Cotsarelis tells WebMD. "And they don't have to be anemic. That is the biggest mistake doctors make."

http://www.hairloss-research.org/LinkUpdateCayenne1-08.html

Men do not readily get an iron deficiency, the problem is the utilization. This is where iodine and other co-factors come in. Most men have far more iron than they need.

gbp2000 wrote:I didn't realise Dandruff and Candida were closely connected - other than being yeast I guess that says it all though, at the very least they spring from a common source.

well erm, it's largely an assumption by me (being that I only really got dandruff once I had what I am 95% sure is a systemic fungal overgrowth, and dandruff is fungal (I know this first hand because I can kill it with grapefruit seed extract!!).

Erm.. and yeah some websites and sources (probably far more than I realize) make the link between Candidiasis and dandruff.

I'm so glad I seem to be getting consistent die-off now, as I ensure to rotate my antifungals. Also, my lufenuron arrived in the mail today so now the fun starts! lol

I just wish I could find a solid, cheap source of fluconazole in the UK as I really want to chuck that in at the same time as lufenuron (maybe 150-300mg a day for 30 days) but I can't find a cheap source that will let me buy more than 3 150mg capsules at a time.

Hmph ._.

CausticSymmetry wrote:

mihai wrote:

abc123 wrote:I think keeping Iron low (avoidance, coffee, blood donation) would be a great way to lower if not eliminate the infectious burden.

Some site saying that iron actually helps hair:
Iron Supplementation and Hair Loss Treatment

This article reinforces what has been stated by several published researchers over the years, most notably Dr. Rushton. That is, that that virtually all treatments for hair loss in both men and women are more efficacious with iron supplementation, whether you are "iron deficient" or not. Dr. Rushton maintains that this effect is dramatically enhanced when iron is used in conjunction with vitamin C and L-Lysine.

May 17, 2006If you're losing hair, you may have an iron deficiency.

A review of 40 years of research shows that iron deficiency has a much closer link to hair loss than most doctors realize. It may be the key to restoring hair growth, Cleveland Clinic dermatologists find.

"We believe that treatment for hair loss is enhanced when iron deficiency, with or without anemia, is treated," Leonid Benjamin Trost, MD; Wilma Fowler Bergfeld, MD; and Ellen Calogeras, RD, MPH, write in the May issue of the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology.

It's a controversial issue. Not every study shows a link between iron deficiency and hair loss. Trost says there's not enough hard evidence -- yet -- to make iron-deficiency screening a routine procedure for people with hair loss.

But study researcher Bergfeld has been doing this for years. And she's finding that whatever the cause of hair loss -- for both women and men -- having too little iron in the blood makes it worse.

"What Dr. Bergfeld has found in decades of experience, is when she treats patients for iron deficiency --even in the absence of anemia -- it can maximize their ability to regrow hair," Trost tells WebMD. "It is not the silver bullet for baldness, but it can definitely help maximize how a patient regrows hair."

The Cleveland Clinic isn't alone in doing this. George Cotsarelis, director of the University of Pennsylvania Hair and Scalp Clinic, has studied iron supplementation in women with various forms of hair loss.

"From our clinic's experience, it is clear to me that if you replenish hair-loss patients' iron stores with iron supplements, they are more likely to regrow hair, or at least stop hair shedding," Cotsarelis tells WebMD. "And they don't have to be anemic. That is the biggest mistake doctors make."

http://www.hairloss-research.org/LinkUpdateCayenne1-08.html

Men do not readily get an iron deficiency, the problem is the utilization. This is where iodine and other co-factors come in. Most men have far more iron than they need.

Brilliant point by CS. Too often we overllook the critical synergy of micronutrients.

Look at nature - it all comes together never as a supplement...

Would love to hear what jdp or prague thinks of that one

Man I'm so sure all this is correct! Like 99% certain.

I mean, as I say my housemate has hair loss probs, VERY candida-like IBS, and then I see the shampoo he uses... Head and Shoulders! Anti-dandruff! Just like my dad had to go nuts on anti-dandruff shampoos as he neared 30. INFECTION!! Bloody Candida junk ._.

Hoppipolla wrote:

gbp2000 wrote:I didn't realise Dandruff and Candida were closely connected - other than being yeast I guess that says it all though, at the very least they spring from a common source.

well erm, it's largely an assumption by me .

Hmph ._.

Purporting such industrial amounts of idle speculation on a site that may take the brunt of your unfounded posting could be dangerous and rude to the site owner and those who are desperately looking for help. You know that, right hoppi?

a

Hoppipolla wrote:

gbp2000 wrote:I didn't realise Dandruff and Candida were closely connected - other than being yeast I guess that says it all though, at the very least they spring from a common source.

well erm, it's largely an assumption by me .

Hmph ._.

Purporting such industrial amounts of idle speculation on a site that may take the brunt of your unfounded posting could be dangerous and rude to the site owner and those who are desperately looking for help. You know that, right hoppi?

Well, I don't agree

aFact based Medicine.

It's only a hair loss site though man.

I mean, of course it's good to base what you say on solid sources and stuff, but I sure as hell am not about to devote loads of time to finding perfect sources and take twice as long on every post just because some people don't understand the fact that forums are places where people simply talk and share opinions.

Anywho erm, I actually learn a lot from places like IH, from opinions as well as from studies and stuff. In fact, I usually get just as much from anecdotes as from studies personally

That really blows my mind, it defies logic and rationality, not in any personal way but merely because when one is dealing with reaching a specific end (no more hair loss) one has to use reason to find why hair loss is there in the first place, not mere speculation that is unfounded and disproven.

aThat really blows my mind, it defies logic and rationality, not in any personal way but merely because when one is dealing with reaching a specific end (no more hair loss) one has to use reason to find why hair loss is there in the first place, not mere speculation that is unfounded and disproven.

I have to agree with this. The points I made in a previous post were wholesale ignored. Granted, I am swayed by many of CS's references on the IH website. There are number of ways that MBP can be accelerated by poor health. Anything that accelerates inflammation or creates an androgen imbalance will speed up the effect of DHT.

Pareto's principle, the 80/20 rule -- let's hammer the genuine cause of most of our follicular troubles and use objective evidence like blood tests as measures of our success, rather than wasting an inordinate amount of time theorizing about the role of bacteria and other wishful thinking.

My question is -- why aren't we focusing more on BLOOD TESTS and checking levels of DHT and SHBG, and tailoring our supplementation and diet towards moving those values towards the known ideals for those genetically predisposed to AGA? Many members here aren't even taking the time to look at their hormones. They're just focusing on the minutia -- the least important 20% -- making guesses, and kitchen-sinking the hell out everything.

Going bald before 30? GET YOUR EFFIN' SHBG TESTED AND FIGURE OUT WHY IT IS LOW.

aThat really blows my mind, it defies logic and rationality, not in any personal way but merely because when one is dealing with reaching a specific end (no more hair loss) one has to use reason to find why hair loss is there in the first place, not mere speculation that is unfounded and disproven.

I agree, Hoppi, your posts these days are just your opinion, idea or made up from what you've seen some guy on a youtube video say. You refuse to post any studies or articles to back up what you say, like its the most ridiculous thing ever and nobody else is doing it. It is very irresponsible. You haven't even stopped your own hair loss have you but talk about your experiences like you have.

How would you feel if you lost 1-2 years worth of hair doing a diet that someone on the forum had made up without scientific evidence that didn't work?

ViolatedBird wrote:Pareto's principle, the 80/20 rule -- let's hammer the genuine cause of most of our follicular troubles and use objective evidence like blood tests as measures of our success, rather than wasting an inordinate amount of time theorizing about the role of bacteria and other wishful thinking.

My question is -- why aren't we focusing more on BLOOD TESTS and checking levels of DHT and SHBG, and tailoring our supplementation and diet towards moving those values towards the known ideals for those genetically predisposed to AGA? Many members here aren't even taking the time to look at their hormones. They're just focusing on the minutia -- the least important 20% -- making guesses, and kitchen-sinking the hell out everything.

Going bald before 30? GET YOUR EFFIN' SHBG TESTED AND FIGURE OUT WHY IT IS LOW.

^^^--THIS!!

tooyoung wrote:

aThat really blows my mind, it defies logic and rationality, not in any personal way but merely because when one is dealing with reaching a specific end (no more hair loss) one has to use reason to find why hair loss is there in the first place, not mere speculation that is unfounded and disproven.

I agree, Hoppi, your posts these days are just your opinion, idea or made up from what you've seen some guy on a youtube video say. You refuse to post any studies or articles to back up what you say, like its the most ridiculous thing ever and nobody else is doing it. It is very irresponsible. You haven't even stopped your own hair loss have you but talk about your experiences like you have.

How would you feel if you lost 1-2 years worth of hair doing a diet that someone on the forum had made up without scientific evidence that didn't work?

wow. lol


EDIT -- To be honest, I was just reading over my posts to see what on Earth I say differently to other people to provoke constant, predictable hostility at me on here (I never get it anywhere else).

I think it's the confidence with which I say things. I just come right out and say stuff loudly and confidently, and I think that rubs people up the wrong way who don't agree.

So, I'm sorry you find the way I talk offensive. lol

I don't think you are understand what I am getting at. You have brilliant enthusiasm and temperament, I don't find your posts offensive or the way which you say them, it's the content.

Not long at all ago you were posting videos of durianrider who was eating 30 bananas a day and saying how well you were doing, fast forward a few weeks you are saying sugar is terrible. You promote things such as the vegan diet or a raw diet without showing any data to back up why your diet is effective compared to another diet for example.

I have seen testimonials (which you seem to rely on as fact) from people that have done terribly on a vegan diet, low libido, hair loss etc.. Yet you still promote the diet without posting studies which show why its better but say things like "its just better" and its "cleaner" as a way of validating your choice.

I don't have a problem at all with you Hoppi or beliefs but you need to stop proclaiming your posts as fact when they arn't.