joint pain, and diet question.

I train 5 times per week and has of late i have been having pains in my right elbow, i persume it is joint pain. What supplement would help to releive the pain and help with supporting the joint. Ideally i am looking for just one supplement as on a budget.

Also im on a high protein diet and eat alot of eggs, 8 whole eggs per day to be precise, is it healthy for me to eat that many per day. I dont fell ill or anything consuming that many.

IntoTheWest wrote:I train 5 times per week and has of late i have been having pains in my right elbow, i persume it is joint pain. What supplement would help to releive the pain and help with supporting the joint. Ideally i am looking for just one supplement as on a budget.

Also im on a high protein diet and eat alot of eggs, 8 whole eggs per day to be precise, is it healthy for me to eat that many per day. I dont fell ill or anything consuming that many.

A high-protein diet is very bad for the bones. The amino-acids in animal-protein are too acidic and can cause calcium loss from the bones and impair kidney function. Eggs are bad in my opinion: saturated-fat, cholesterol, animal-protein, no fiber, no vitamin-C, no phytonutrients, etc.

IntoTheWest - Hyaluronic acid will probably do the trick. It acts as a natural shock absorber for the joints. Eggs are no problem, and you can eat as many as you like.

The adviced mentioned above on diet is patently false, all points have been disproven many times on this forum.

Hey CS,

I've been fascinated by the notion that eggs are a super food.

In your opinion, is there a big nutritional difference between organic eggs and non-organic eggs? There's a considerable price difference between the two.

Thats great, would hate to give up eggs, its the tastiest thing in my diet lol. I'll give hyaluronic acid a try.
Thanks for the replys.

CausticSymmetry - I have been looking for Hyaluronic Acid on Iherb, their is so many to choose from it leaves me spoilt for choice lol, and some are quite expensive compared to the other. Would you reccomend me good cost effective brand please.

Dietary Animal and Plant Protein and Human Bone Health: A Whole Foods Approach

Food Science and Human Nutrition, Washington State University Spokane, Spokane, WA 99210

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/3/862S

ABSTRACT
Urinary calcium excretion is strongly related to net renal acid excretion. The catabolism of dietary protein generates ammonium ion and sulfates from sulfur-containing amino acids. Bone citrate and carbonate are mobilized to neutralize these acids, so urinary calcium increases when dietary protein increases. Common plant proteins such as soy, corn, wheat and rice have similar total S per g of protein as eggs, milk and muscle from meat, poultry and fish. Therefore increasing intake of purified proteins from either animal or plant sources similarly increases urinary calcium. The effects of a protein on urinary calcium and bone metabolism are modified by other nutrients found in that protein food source. For example, the high amount of calcium in milk compensates for urinary calcium losses generated by milk protein. Similarly, the high potassium levels of plant protein foods, such as legumes and grains, will decrease urinary calcium. The hypocalciuric effect of the high phosphate associated with the amino acids of meat at least partially offsets the hypercalciuric effect of the protein. Other food and dietary constituents such as vitamin D, isoflavones in soy, caffeine and added salt also have effects on bone health. Many of these other components are considered in the potential renal acid load of a food or diet, which predicts its effect on urinary acid and thus calcium. "Excess" dietary protein from either animal or plant proteins may be detrimental to bone health, but its effect will be modified by other nutrients in the food and total diet.

IntoTheWest - Here's the best one: http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Hyaluronic-Acid-Double-Strength-100-mg-60-Vcaps/8227?at=0

misterE - As before, that statement (including study) has been refuted many times before on this forum.

Here's just one study, and note--it's more up to date:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1169

The conclusion was: "In contrast to the widely held belief that increased protein intake results in calcium wasting, meat supplements, when exchanged isocalorically for carbohydrates, may have a favorable impact on the skeleton in healthy older men and women."

CausticSymmetry wrote:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1169

Quote from: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1169

"meat supplements in combination with reducing carbohydrate intake did not alter urine calcium excretion, but was associated with higher circulating levels of IGF-I."



CS, you do realize that free-IGF-1 is the most powerful inhibitor of SHBG [1] [2]. And low SHBG is associated with diabetes, heart-disease, PCOS, and acne. Low SHBG seems to increase estrogen and DHT and lower total-testosterone. Also balding men are shown to have higher circulating IGF-1 and less Insulin-like-growth-factor-binding-protein-3 (IGFBP-3) [3]. Also evidence is clear that you can increase your IGFBP's by lowering the type and amount of protein you eat [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9].






[1] Vertex balding, plasma insulin-like growth factor 1, and insulin-like growth factor binding protein 3.
[2] Acne vulgaris: a disease of Western civilization.
[3] Diet and acne.
[4] Long-term effects of calorie or protein restriction on serum IGF-1 and IGFBP-3 concentration in humans.
[5] Dietary correlates of plasma insulin-like growth factor I and insulin-like growth factor binding protein 3 concentrations.
[6] Determinants of circulating insulin-like growth factor I and insulin-like growth factor binding protein 3 concentrations in a cohort of Singapore men and women.
[7] The influence of dietary intake on the insulin–like growth factor (IGF) system across three ethnic groups: a population–based study.
[8] The associations of diet with serum insulin–like growth factor I and its main binding proteins in 292 women meat–eaters, vegetarians, and vegans.
[9] Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but
normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men.

misterE - Oh yes, I realize that, however IGF-1 is necessary for growth.

"X" doesn't always = "bad"

CausticSymmetry wrote:misterE - Oh yes, I realize that, however IGF-1 is necessary for growth.

Understood. But after puberty, doesn't it make sense to stop growing? Otherwise we will just increase our aging process and cancer risks. Growing is for adolescence. Sustaining is for adults.

misterE - Sufficient IGF-1 is needed for proper bone and hair growth into adulthood. Without enough, growth factors will not work.

CausticSymmetry wrote:misterE - Sufficient IGF-1 is needed for proper bone and hair growth into adulthood. Without enough, growth factors will not work.

What about rats that are genetically engineered to not produce very much IGF-1 and actually look younger, have better brains, eyes, immunity, are able to resist disease, and have much longer life-spans?

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINTRE62P4IK20100326
High protein diet won't harm young women's bones

http://planet-tama.org/showthread.php?t=43086
Calcium plus protein equals strong bones: study

http://www.themedguru.com/20090703/newsfeature/vegetarian-diet-can-weaken-bones-86123388.html
Vegetarian diet can weaken bones

http://www.mercola.com/article/carbohydrates/paleolithic_diet2.htm
The Paleolithic Diet and Its Modern Implications

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/397/
Cordain/Campbell protein debate

Those are interesting blogs and threads blackjack, but they barely provide numerous studies to back up their claims. Should we take their advice since they didn't find multiple studies to prove their points?

Yes i do and its been working out quite well for me since i been a raw vegan / vegetarian for some time.

I'm looking forward to seeing Mis binge eating on a big steak in a few years... A vegan diet is a dead end guaranteed.

All I'm trying to say is there are three big diseases strongly associated with MPB. Like heart-disease, diabetes, and prostate-cancer. Well three different doctors (Esselstyn, Barnard, and Ornish, using the same diet (the McDougall Diet) reversed all three diseases! People advocating the Adkins-diet like CS doesn't have any studies that show you can reverse the Metabolic Syndrome with a high saturated-fat diet, in fact quite the opposite, studies show that you can reverse the Metabolic Syndrome with the Pritikin-diet or McDougall diet.

Knowing the information I posted above is a crucial "piece of the puzzle" in my opinion.

misterE - I've already posted numberous studies already.

What I'm saying is that the best diet is the right one for the individual. We can all agree that avoidance of refined starches and sugars and processed, adultered fats is the way to go.

CausticSymmetry wrote:

We can all agree that avoidance of refined starches and sugars and processed food

Agreed, but the assumption that potatoes are bad, or fruit is bad is not correct.

CausticSymmetry wrote:

adultered fats is the way to go.

Why would you say that when there is no eveidence that the Adkins-diet reverses the Metabolic Syndrome. The evidence is clear that you need high-fiber-strach in order to reverse the Metabolic Syndrome.

This is the exact same argument Dr. Ornish had with Dr. Adkins!

misterE - The quote isn't quite accurate.

#1 - I do not suggest dropping potatoes.

I suggest to avoid refined starches and sugars, as well as processed/adulterated fats.

Those pro-vegan doctors are not the only ones to reverse heart disease, I've already listed a few in the past.

Sadly this forum is being run off with too much diet topics. There are other causes of heart disease also, which lately is not getting enough attention.

A lot of vegans love to quote from poor studies that lump all the fat together and blame saturated fat for all the ills.

While most of the time I post very recent studies that show how low carb, high fat is good for heart disease and metabolic syndrome, here's an older one that shows the "paradox" of saturated fat. These researchers were obviously stumped at the results, because the once bought into the false paradigm.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/5/1102

CausticSymmetry wrote:



#1 - I do not suggest dropping potatoes.


I suggest to avoid refined starches and sugars, as well as processed/adulterated fats.

OK, I thought you were anti-carb. I thought you followed the Adkins/Taubes philosophy, which is wrong. But know that I understand that you have a good-carb/good-fat mindset is fair, but do you think that animal-fat is more nutritious than plant-fats like nuts, seeds, and avocado? Animal-fat contains cholesterol, while the fat in nuts, seeds, and avocado contains phytosterols, like Beta-Sitosterol and Campesterol which are considered the most potent natural anti-estrogen/anti-DHT phytochemical yet discovered.

misterE - I was once a large proponent of Beta Sitosterol and phytosterols in general--until I progressively through the years started to increase the dose (hoping then to get better results).

More was not only not better, it was much worse.

The problem with a very high intake of phytosterols is that they displace cholesterol in the gut.

I realize that you hold the old view that cholesterol is "bad."

Cholesterol is the stuff of life. It's the building block to all steroid hormones, and without hormones, we are nothing. It coats the nerves and is very protective against various diseases that suffer from low cholesterol.

In other words, too much phytosterol intake will deplete Pregnenolone, DHEA, testosterone and of course other hormones made from testosterone.

The highest plant eater intakes would have a hard time taking in much more than 400 mg of these per day, which wouldn't be any cause for concern.

Back to cholesterol - When the body raises it, this action is protective (not adverse). Certainly, a high cholesterol level can indicate a problem, however the higher cholesterol itself is needed for that protection.

Thyroid, low testosterone, insulin resistance, heavy metals, low vitamin D are prime causes of high cholesterol.

On what is more nutritious? The qualities of the animal products certain matters. Pasture-fed sources with no antibiotics and cooked to zero to moderate temperatures can be quite nutrient dense.

Certainly fish are quite nutrient dense.

If I compared spirulina to meat, it's a harder call.

Comparing nuts, seeds and plants to meat is easy. Meat will win. But there can be exceptions and you start to get into the quality of the soil for the plants, nuts and seeds, how they are prepared, the quality of the meat, etc.

So, I'd rather state, just eat what you feel best on.

For many years, I worked along side a physician who once believed in the Pritikin model (who was Ornish's mentor), and subsequently, he changed his view when new data came out. I used to belief in the low fat, vegan model until I coudn't explain why I felt like crap.

Finally studies started to explain the "paradox." More important than that is what I saw clinically, so I don't go by what doctors write, I read the studies myself.