Throw away your Vitamin D3!

Good and knowledgeable post thanks for sharing.

Caustic: Chris Masterjohn has done interesting research on vit A being a synergist with D. Dosing with D in a patient with low A (alot of the population) can drive A into deficiency and the Marshall folks seeing immunity drop may be monitoring Vit A deficiency. Getting D from fermented cod liver oil is a way to insure you are getting A with your D.

https://www.google.com/search?q=chris+masterjohn+vitamin+d&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Some of those weston price links are dead but Kressor's links are good. Look for Masterjohn's comments on D on his dailylipid site.

Curt

CausticSymmetry wrote:jdp710 - The folks at bacteriality are ones who are anti-vitamin D ala Marshall Protocol. I've heard too many negative stories of people using their methods to failure to have much confidence in it. Yes, they believe vitamin D suppresses the immune system.

Based on German new medicine and other leading science, bacteria itself is not even a real issue. Lyme's disease is a good example of this. Take a look (or rather, check out the podcast here below) at Dr. Bigelson's website. He's a long time expert at live blood analysis.

http://www.drbigelsen.com/drbigelsen/Podcast/Podcast.html

There's a whole paradigm shift at least in German new medicine and other work that demonstrates the bacteria is not a problem, but rather the terrain (environment).

Of course the folks at bacteriality and Marshall protocol have a more extreme view of vitamin D, they believe in using the drug Olmesartan Medoxomil (Benicar/Olmetec/Votum), which is a Angiotensin Receptor Blocker.

They also advocate against getting sunlight. In terms of autoimmune diseases, I believe they have the whole theory wrong about bacteria. The bacteria mutate according to the conditions (something is changing that environment), so I think there's another culprit. One example is root canals and uncleaned sockets from the jawbone and/or body implants.

Personal experiences trumps everything, so if you feel better without D3, that may certainly say something. So far, I've only benefited from it. The primary benefits on Vitamin D are raising glutathione, increasing anti-microbial peptides (the Marshall folks hate this), raising testosterone and improving sugar metabolism. Finally, Vitamin D positively regulates 10% of the human genome.

One very well touted use for the MP Protocol is for autoimmune thyroid, however iodine with adjunctive supplementation can correct it. All AIT patients have very low iodine levels.

Please keep us updated on any improvements.

curt504 - Yes, A & D definitely have some relationship on an immune level. I had a Healthyfixx article on the subject, but it's no longer available.

Here's a condensed version from HairEvo.

http://hairevo.com/shop/content/13-vitamin-a-and-hair-loss

curt504 wrote:Dosing with D in a patient with low A (alot of the population) can drive A into deficiency and the Marshall folks seeing immunity drop may be monitoring Vit A deficiency. Getting D from fermented cod liver oil is a way to insure you are getting A with your D.

Before I fully understood, I once asked about use of Cod Liver Oil for Vitamin D suplementation and it was mentioned to me that all Cod Liver Oil the Vitamin D in it for decades is added otherwise is very harsh to take. I don't know if that includes Blue Ice CLO though but he told me all is synthetic.

But in short, there really is no need to think about supplementing D3 as there is plenty of the unconverted stored in the tissues for most. Just need to take the co-factors (Vitamin A, K, boron, etc.) to raise D levels. And in the summer get your short period of time in sun.

Regarding Vitamin A here is a quote from Syama from another forum. Note what's in bold is my emphasis.

The body modulates various resources in the blood depending on where an infection is and what type it is. For instance, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12955792
"Low serum beta-carotene in CAD patients reflects activation of the immune system. Inflammation should be considered as an important confounding factor when analysing data on beta-carotene and CAD."

So if you are ill and your body isn't responding the way it should you can be pretty sure some pathogenic process is either blocking it on purpose or creating an environment that forces your body to do it, and they're usually one and the same. So all I can suggest is you think backwards. What pathogens would benefit from turning off beta-carotene activation? In this case the answers are vast, but you can narrow it down by thinking of pathogens in terms of intelligence and not just opportunity.

Vitamin A (Beta-Carotene activation pathways are disrupted in chronic fatigue patients, unconverted beta-carotene builds up making things worse)

None of the Vit A or D in blue ice is synthetic unless you want to consider the fermentation process increased A (and D) to be added.

http://www.greenpasture.org/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-vitamin-d-vitamin-a/update-on-cod-liver-oil-manufacturing-returning-to-traditional-production-techniques-for-the-quintessential-sacred-food/

We've known David Wetzel (??) for many years, heard him speak many times. Blue Ice and his other products are manufactured as the Viking fishermen used to in olden times. Per his claim, his cod liver oil is the only non-industrial oil on the market. Never the less we take a decent amount, 1 t / 2x day, and I still test low on D, 35-45 nm/ml (??), so it seems I need to supliment with D3 to get my D up a bit more. My researcher wife believes that low D just may mean it's bound to A and is in "use". Where folks low in A but test high in D actually have little of their D working for them. There's still alot of research needed in this area especially when you consider the synergy of the K family with D and A. All the more reason why a historically reflective diet would include fermented cod liver oil and butter oil (high in natural K).

curt

You have reminded me that I have the best hair when I have a lot of outdoor exercise.

A few years ago, I was unemployed. So I have a lot of free time. At that time, I go hiking almost everyday. 3 ~ 4 months later, my skin color has turned into dark brown. I noticed that I have stronger hair. And the hairline looks better too.

After I got a full time job, I only have outdoor exercise few times per month. And most of the time, I exercised at night. So I have much less direct contact with the sun light. My hair starts get worst at that time too.

By ready your post, I think it may be the sun light that help me to maintain good hair.

Just to get this important article by Chris Masterjohn into the searchable history:

http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/12/16/is-vitamin-d-safe-still-depends-on-vitamins-a-and-k-testimonials-and-a-human-study/

Practitioner comments include: magnesium deficiency promotes negative symptoms from taking D3. He has his patients take Mg prior to D3 and along with during D protocols.

Chris's point is that A and K are needed in parallel with D or to support the body properly using D. Chris's comments and those of commenters include that if A is very low that D can crash the immune system (as was my wife's experience as well).

Supplemental vitamin D increases your need for vitamin A, so don’t forget the aforementioned cod liver, which includes both.

Also

Spiesman treated 54 individuals who suffered from frequent colds (five to seven colds per winter) with massive doses of either vitamin A alone, vitamin D alone, or vitamins A and D together. He treated them during the winter, for as many as three years, with a dosing schedule reaching a maximum of 40,000 IU for vitamin A and 300,000 IU for vitamin D.

Spiesman found that vitamins A and D only reduced colds when fed together:

BTW I'd never let a practitioner give me one of those 50k IU injections the Vit D Council / Cannell followers are so fond of calling therapeutic. We are prone to so many deficiencies it's hard to say exactly what a negative experience is due to so there's no one view that fits certainly not in the case of Vit D supplementation.

curt

Steve_Gr wrote:I take D3 5000 iu for 2 months (http://www.iherb.com/product-reviews/Healthy-Origins-Vitamin-D3-5-000-IU-360-Softgels/18335/?p=1&lang=en )

and today i got my blood test results

25 OH VITAMIN D3 ---> 30.1
Range...10 - 60 (ng/ml)

Is it low? Should i raise my dose at 10000 iu?

I follow a very healthy diet and i live at a very sunshine Country.

according the above, i increase the dose to 10.000 iu of d3, but one month ago, i start to feel tendon pain to my right arm, at shoulder and triceps. I didn't give too much attention at first. But the last two days, i hardly move my arm, and the pain reached at my elbow and fingers also. I stay away from the gym the last three days, (no problem there, i workout for years) but today i feel pain and to my left arm too.
So, i start to feel that something isn't right.
Another problem that i have notice is a frequent urination.

Could the D vitamine cause tendon pains? (i take all the co factors, a, k2, boron, mg)

i also read this

When the level of vitamin D increases in the body, it raises the level of calcium in the blood. The obvious result of this condition is hypercalcemia (presence of abnormally high level of calcium in blood), and is responsible for producing most of the symptoms. The early symptoms include:

Anorexia
Diarrhea
Constipation
Nausea
Vomiting
Bone pain
Drowsiness
Constant headache
Irregular heartbeat
Loss of appetite
Muscle and joint pain
Frequent urination
Excessive thirst
Weakness
Nervousness
Itching
Read more at Buzzle: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/symptoms-of-vitamin-d-toxicity.html

It usually take at least a few months to raise vitamin D levels.

Second, those side-effects mentioned require a dosage upwards of 50,000 IU for a period of 6 months or more.

http://gettingstronger.org/2012/11/why-i-dont-take-vitamin-d-supplements/#more-3997

Think this is a pretty good article.

scottyc33 wrote:http://gettingstronger.org/2012/11/why-i-dont-take-vitamin-d-supplements/#more-3997

Think this is a pretty good article.

FWIW, I am currently taking 5000IU of raw, whole food Vitamin D3 (for the winter only), but I do agree with the some of the author's main points.

Thanks for that piece. It's a useful example of why we need to carefully understand who the author is, their agenda and also how old they are.

That article was posted recently, Nov 2012, and never mentioned vitamins A or K. It's been long enough since the research on the co-dependancy D, A, K has been out for papers like this to at least mention that D does not work within the body alone. For this author to go on about D in complete isolation is quite debasing his one size fits all advice: no supplementing D.

http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/12/16/is-vitamin-d-safe-still-depends-on-vitamins-a-and-k-testimonials-and-a-human-study/

There's now an understanding that if your A is low you probably will impair your immune system by taking D. Because D binds up the available A to become active driving the patient into severe A deficiency. In this scenario he's correct. But he makes this serious omission in his paper.

So if you do supplement D you need to make sure your A status is good to high and also have available K. IE you are on a dark green leafy vegetable diet and also consume butter, butter oil, fermented cod liver oil, carrots etc, fish and fish eggs to get your A and K. Or just get your D from alot of fermented cod liver oil, fish and fish eggs as many indigenous peoples did.

My reading agrees with this author but to a very limited only degree, there's more to the story ... as usual. My wife's very negative outcome from a 50k IU injection of D very much agrees! Stay away from high dose D injections, certainly.

Rather than taking hormone and vitamin supplements, it is more effective to stimulate your body to strengthen its own defense and detoxification systems. I’m not against all supplementation — for example, I believe that ingestion of phytochemical-rich vegetables and herbs is useful as a hormetic stimulus. But I think we have to overcome the simplistic notion that if X is a good thing, we should consume more of X.

The body is more than a repository for chemicals — it is a self-regulating organism with hundreds of complex and dynamic feedback loops, evolved to enable us to adapt to changing circumstances and meet many challenges. We should take care that what we ingest is used to build up our natural capacities, not subvert them.

This is the type of stuff I read from "experts" who are usually in their 20's and 30's or on the healthy tail of the Gaussian distribution. Wait till he's in his 50's and 60's or you are on the un-healthy tail of the Gaussian distribution and lets how long he touts no hormones and other anti-aging protocols!! lol Good advice if you can get your body to respond. Good luck with that if you are older, or sick, suffering from chronic ... etc.

First determine the credibility and context of the author before taking 100% of what they say as applicable to your situation, age, health status, nutritional status, etc,, right? Medical science = where science gets the most contorted by personal bias.

My favorite article that helped me to dig into the author before picking up what is said to be applicable to me is this riveting piece:
Medical research truthfullness

He charges that as much as 90 percent of the published medical information that doctors rely on is flawed.

The above might give one a different set of rose colored glasses to view: take no D ever, which might be working for the age and health status of the subjects being studied just fine, but maybe this can't be extrapolated to everyone every time.

curt

FWIW, from what I personally can tell, age doesn't appear to be a factor regarding those who experience problems from taking D3 supplement, IMO.

It appears those with a pathogenic problem are the ones that report ill effects from consuming D3 supplement. Those without an initial pathogenic problem is theorized, and I agree with, D3 supplement will create a pathogenic problem years or decades in the future. Worse, recovering from these pathogenic problems can take Herculean efforts. Something that most people just don't have the capability to overcome and why D3 supplement is so dangerous, IMO! It's similar to those who have taken ibuprofen for example for years or decades.


Sure co-factors and sun exposure will convert the D3 to the active form "lessening" the problem of D3 supplementation. However, based on a study there is plenty of the D3 that is stored in the tissues that supplementing D3 is not even necessary to raise the levels. Just taking the co-factors will.

A lot has been mentioned earlier in this thread and other threads where it's buried but this quote from Dr. Loyd, is accurate, IMO. "most people can tolerate only small amounts of vitamin D."

As a disclaimer, the info in this post is not widely accepted.

rdkml wrote:FWIW, from what I personally can tell, age doesn't appear to be a factor regarding those who experience problems from taking D3 supplement, IMO.

It appears those with a pathogenic problem are the ones that report ill effects from consuming D3 supplement. Those without an initial pathogenic problem is theorized, and I agree with, D3 supplement will create a pathogenic problem years or decades in the future. Worse, recovering from these pathogenic problems can take Herculean efforts. Something that most people just don't have the capability to overcome and why D3 supplement is so dangerous, IMO! It's similar to those who have taken ibuprofen for example for years or decades.


Sure co-factors and sun exposure will convert the D3 to the active form "lessening" the problem of D3 supplementation. However, based on a study there is plenty of the D3 that is stored in the tissues that supplementing D3 is not even necessary to raise the levels. Just taking the co-factors will.

A lot has been mentioned earlier in this thread and other threads where it's buried but this quote from Dr. Loyd, is accurate, IMO. "most people can tolerate only small amounts of vitamin D."

As a disclaimer, the info in this post is not widely accepted.

Forget studies for a moment.

What about the common sense view that getting high amounts of D3 through diet is pretty much impossible (ex: you'd have to eat about 10 servings of salmon each and every day to get ~5000 IU a day).

To me this means, the body wasn't "meant" to get D3 this way, hence for that reason alone, there is cause for concern.

Never mind, that most D3 pills are synthetic....

Anyway, I think I'm going to switch back to fermented cod liver oil and get in front of the sunbed a couple of times a week.

rdkml wrote:FWIW, from what I personally can tell, age doesn't appear to be a factor regarding those who experience problems from taking D3 supplement, IMO.

It appears those with a pathogenic problem are the ones that report ill effects from consuming D3 supplement. Those without an initial pathogenic problem is theorized, and I agree with, D3 supplement will create a pathogenic problem years or decades in the future. Worse, recovering from these pathogenic problems can take Herculean efforts. Something that most people just don't have the capability to overcome and why D3 supplement is so dangerous, IMO! It's similar to those who have taken ibuprofen for example for years or decades.


Sure co-factors and sun exposure will convert the D3 to the active form "lessening" the problem of D3 supplementation. However, based on a study there is plenty of the D3 that is stored in the tissues that supplementing D3 is not even necessary to raise the levels. Just taking the co-factors will.

A lot has been mentioned earlier in this thread and other threads where it's buried but this quote from Dr. Loyd, is accurate, IMO. "most people can tolerate only small amounts of vitamin D."

As a disclaimer, the info in this post is not widely accepted.

JDP,

So you feel long term supplementation of vitamin A and vitamin Ks and other co-factors are safe? Is there a whole foods vitamin D that will mitigate the issue? People who live in sunny California like myself still have low vitamin D so I'm trying to get it up as I feel it is definitely a factor in my health.

Hi NYJets,

Yes, people all over the world including those getting ample sun exposure in India, Africa and other places routinely show low Vitamin 25 OH D levels (the precursor to the active form 1,25 D). The reason why is due to a pathogenic problem, IMO. However, this view isn't popular and most just tell people to get more sun exposure or take D3 supplement with co-factors.

In fact, people will notice after taking D3 supplement long enough that it makes one feel completely different than the years they spent when they were younger when they got moderate amounts of sun exposure. Almost as if taking large quantities of Ibuprofen everyday.

It took years for enough people throughout the world to realize that co-factors were "needed" when supplementing D3 even though the information was available just not widely accepted by the majority. It'll probably take another couple more years or even longer to realize that sun exposure is also needed when supplementing D3 to limit negative consequences. Although this defeats the purpose for the reason people are told why one should take a D3 supplement Even then, I think it'll take much much longer for people to realize that a D3 supplement is extremely detrimental to their health long-term.


There are many videos available on how society developed these pathogenic problems which most are autoimmune ailments and show up as low Vitamin D levels as a marker, IMO, but maybe this video will help in understanding why vaccines contributed greatly to these autoimmune ailments/pathogen problem. Which again, Vitamin D is just a marker. What one needs to do is correct the autoimmune ailments by inhibiting pathogens and that's where the real success is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aHRMjVHggI&feature=player_embedded Fast forward to 8:00 but have to watch the whole video to get an understanding.




I hope the above makes sense. Regarding your other question, the alternative for a long-time from others was Blue Ice Cod Liver oil and not other forms of Cod Liver Oil. However, you definitely don't want to take large amounts and I wouldn't take the CLO for the Vitamin D even if taking the Vitamin D co-factors I know of one person who has mentioned many times that taking large quantities of CLO for the D3 "speculated" that his health deteriorated at least partly because of it.

Rather than taking individual Vitamin D co factors or Blue Ice Cod Liver Oil or even D3 supplement I use to recommend Osteoboron if one is looking for a supplement to raise Vitamin D levels which was the cheaper version of FruitX (aka FruiteX) It's been discontinued but can still buy FruitX. In addition, would want to inhibit the pathogens and there are methods for that.

Short-term Intake of Calcium Fructoborate Improves WOMAC and McGill Scores and Beneficially Modulates Biomarkers Associated with Knee Osteoarthritis: A Pilot Clinical Double-blinded Placebo-controlled Study


Abstract

Knee osteoarthritis (OA) is a common degenerative joint disease which contributes significantly to the burden of physical disability. Conventional management of OA mainly focuses on relief of symptoms using analgesics and non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). Some dietary supplements have shown some potency to reduce symptoms associated with OA conditions. Calcium Fructoborate (commercially marketed under the trade name FruiteX-B), is a naturally occurring borate complex as first described by Patrick Brown [1]. For this study, FruiteX-B was characterized by NMR and data from solid and liquid-state 11B NMR have been obtained and compared against boric acid and fructose for quality purposes. In this study, FruiteX-B was tested for fourteen days at a serving of 108 mg twice a day on subjects diagnosed with minor osteoarthritis conditions of the knees by CT scan. FruiteX-B was well tolerated by all study subjects with no reports of adverse effect and resulted in several positive outcomes. On Day 14, WOMAC and McGill indexes were reduced by an average 29% and 14% respectively over Day 1 pre-ingestion values. Blood level of C-Reactive Protein (CRP) in 7 out of 10 subjects was found reduced up to 37% compared to Day 1 baseline levels. Interestingly, the study also showed that blood level of endogenous 1, 25(OH) vitamin D was increased more than 19% compared to baseline. However, differences in 25(OH) vitamin D were not observed. These results indicate that FruiteX-B at a serving as low as 108mg twice a day provides significant benefits to people experiencing conditions associated with knee osteoarthritis. On the basis of these results, a larger clinical efficacy study is highly justified.

There is another study out there from FruiteX that taking the supplement raises Vitamin D levels.

I hope this make sense.



FWIW, I personally consume 24 hour SCD yogurt which provides Vitamin K.

God, the info/debate in this site is awesome sometimes. But also extremely frustrating!

rdkml wrote:

Rather than taking individual Vitamin D co factors or Blue Ice Cod Liver Oil or even D3 supplement I use to recommend Osteoboron if one is looking for a supplement to raise Vitamin D levels which was the cheaper version of FruitX (aka FruiteX) It's been discontinued but can still buy FruitX. In addition, would want to inhibit the pathogens and there are methods for that.

FWIW, I personally consume 24 hour SCD yogurt which provides Vitamin K.

Thanks for the great reply,

I think if anything I'll give the osteoboron a try, looks great.

I was able to find Osteoboron here linked from Amazon: http://www.discountremediesinc.com/osteoboron-with-green-superfoods-90-vcaps-now-foods.html

Great news about the SCD yogurt I'm having some right now and do so regularly plus eat grass fed bone broth almost everyday. I can also increase my grass fed butter intake as I only have it a few times or maybe once a week. Do you feel the gaps diet will work for pathogenic issues? In the book she talks a lot about the diet killing pathogens in the gut. I'd like to tackle that issue next as my diet has changed to gaps, I'm using iodine and co factors +IH 6 and I got the amalgams and cavitations taken care of Gaps diet alone was able to raise my by body temps btw.

Thanks!

FruiteX is calcium fructoborate?

i use this boron
http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-Boron-Chelate-3-mg-100-Capsules/1854

will be better to switch to any of those?
http://www.iherb.com/Vibrant-Health-Phyto-Boron-3-mg-60-Veggie-Caps/13121

http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Bone-Restore-with-Vitamin-K2-150-Capsules/46678

Hi NYJets,

Your welcome.

Yes, diet alone can reduce the pathogen population greatly! Also, many people like the GAPS diet.

I should also mention heavy metal chelation will also greatly reduce the pathogen population as well.





Hi Steve_Gr,

Yes, calcium fructoborate is FruiteX.

I personally wouldn't buy the last one as it contains 1000 IU of D3.

Many years ago we used the 1st one you linked to but then switched to Osteoboron and was happy I did. Osteoboron was the generic version of FruiteX. Way back then my research showed me that they were made by the same company if I remember correct and therefore the thinking was would get similar results. Now it seems most information is scrubbed off the internet about Osteoboron being similar to FruitEx and they try to get you to buy the expensive FruitEx.


If you click the link for Osteoboron from NYJets you'll see the ingredient list and how it's different than other brands.


I don't know of alternatives as I haven't tried the other brands to see if I would be happy with them.

All I can suggest is to buy the FruitEx or Osteoboron for the generic version. I definitely recommend it if one is thinking of taking a D3 supplement. Just take the FruitEx/Osteoboron instead of D3 supplement.

I hope the above makes sense as I'm a little tired.

thank you rdkml
As always, very helpful

Thanks JDP,

Do you still recommend Cutler variation for chelating metals? Hard to stick with that program so I've been using humifulvate, iodine, selenium and vitamin C and zinc glycinate once a day instead not even sure if I can take these together.

Also trying to get my dad to invest in silver instead of deteriorating in his bank account. He could of bought in the low 20's if had listened to me initially.

How do you feel about silver here in 2013? Do you post on a finance forum so maybe I could read up on your posts instead of taking your time. Thanks

Hi NYJets,

Sorry, I don't have any posts on other forums and such that I could share regarding silver investing.

I would recommend to listen to Mike Maloney and read the news at goldsilver.com. I read about 1/5 of the articles there every day.

Regarding 2013, I couldn't predict because it's heavily manipulated and the price will go up to where the manipulation allows it to. It should do a very quick spike up 100% by the end of the year, lol, but who knows what the manipulation will allow it to do.

I think the manipulation is where most people get confused. They feel the manipulation will last forever. It won't. Maybe they'll let it go up in small increments or maybe one day we'll wake up one day and it'll be a banking holiday. Where the dollar gets revalued and gold/silver revalues with it as happens throughout history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-cLZai63GA

You tell this to a bunch of people and they'll say the government can't do that and then go about their lives thinking the manipulation will go on forever. I don't know what to say to those people but they obviously watch too much TV. TV is very good at it's propaganda and I personally limit what I listen to on TV so that I don't get influenced like a lot of people are.

So long as they continue watching TV they'll get suckered into getting their flu shots when they hype the flu up every two years or so. They'll get suckered into many other false beliefs too such as their money is safe.


It's very sad really. There have been a couple generations where all they knew was to work hard and accumulate a lot of dollars. That them working hard was able to get them a better life.

With what's going to occur people will be working hard just to make it by. They won't be working hard to get a big house or expensive car like past generations but will be working hard just to make it by.

Anyhow, for those in the US my vote goes towards 2016 (maybe 2017) or so being a major turning point... around the US presidential election. Just like 2000 or 2008. A little before or a little after as happened with every new president such as 2000 with Tech bubble/War on Terrorism, 2008 with housing bubble, etc..

If it doesn't occur around this time then it only means that gold/silver will be revalued even higher. That gold/silver will be even higher.

The only area that I look and try to keep up on is any potential capital controls they may enact. As during the height of the mania they may enact some laws to restrict sales or higher taxes to limit people from buying physical.

You don't want to sell at the height of it for this reason as well as other reasons. You'll want to sell a little before the mania, IMO, which could be recommend to sell at 300 and ounce for silver or could be 700-1000 an ounce for silver if it goes on till the end of this decade is my guess.

But what the price will do from here till then is really dependent on what the manipulation will allow. As I told someone once before, wake me when silver is at $100. Because that's when you'll really want to pay attention.


I should mention about capital controls, one of the strategies I look at is selling silver and buying mostly gold when the gold/silver ratio narrows. Also, buying investment grade gold jewelry. The only one I'm comfortable with so far is the one at goldsilver.com http://goldsilver.com/buy-online/gold-without-borders/

The reason why is they'll have a very hard time enacting capital controls on jewelry but would have an easy time enacting capital controls on gold/silver coins and rounds. They may enact say a 50 or 60% tax on selling physical gold/silver one day. Probably during the mania. Who knows. I doubt they could do that on jewelry however as that would upset too large of the "US" population.

I hope that makes sense.

Either way, it's inevitable what will happen to the dollar and other currencies of the world and it's inevitable that gold/silver will go up in response and the manipulation will end.

I'm all in. People may think they'll have time to buy assets such as gold/silver (preferably silver if one can stomach the wild swings) and get out of their currency such as the dollar but that's not necessarily true at all. Just look at what India is doing to try and restrict gold or the extremely high premiums in China. Right now if I'm not mistaken it's a 60% premium in China to own physical silver due to supply shortages.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding Cutler Protocol, that's what I used way back and that's what I recommend based on my experience. However, Dr. Loyd's protocol of Metal Release Ex for 6 months may be the safest and best way to remove the metal load. I've never used it myself but I have no reason to doubt Dr. Loyd's recommendation of Metal Release Ex. Especially all the people that try his recommendations and all the other methods that he has tried before metal release. I posted about it fairly recently to summersnow on another thread if you wish to do a search.

But as Dr. Loyd mentions, many people have a problem with mold toxins and that's what is holding them back from getting better and that's probably true, IMO.

Thanks for the great reply JDP. Yes, it makes sense I just had to read it a few times and understand more about manipulation. I will familiarize myself with the market and follow those you advised. Sorry to de-rail guys back on topic

"You tell this to a bunch of people and they'll say the government can't do that and then go about their lives thinking the manipulation will go on forever."


You should tell these people to go learn about what's happened in Argentina over the last few decades.