For all blood flow believers, possibly interesting internal: Arginine

so i found some old threads on arginine but not really much attention was given. CS mentioned it could be helpful or detrimental if too much NO is produced..

sooooooo basically l-arginine can be utilized to produce NO in the body. I looked up some research articles that establish that arginine/NO are VITAL for regulation of angiogenesis in ischemia(blood restriction). i think for the most part members who believe in brushing, believe that the scalp is suffering from chronic hypoxia and insufficient blood supply due to whatever reasons... according to these studies arg/NO are key players in new blood vessel formation. so first of all I'm curious if any brushers/manual method members are on arginine and if they can weigh in.

i just ordered arginine powder and plan to take 1-2g every morning on an empty stomach to see if it helps my hair..

here are the studies

L-Arginine promotes angiogenesis in the chronically hypoxic lung: a novel mechanism ameliorating pulmonary hypertension.


Howell K, Costello CM, Sands M, Dooley I, McLoughlin P.
Am J Physiol Lung Cell Mol Physiol. 2009 Jun; 296(6):L1042-50

This study provides strong evidence that the beneficial effects of l-arginine on chronic hypoxia-induced pulmonary hypertension (PH) are related to an increase in angiogenesis, not to an inhibition of vascular remodelling.

Chronic hypoxia leads to an increase in pulmonary vascular resistance and to PH, a phenomenon that is of great clinical importance. Augmentation of nitric oxide by l-arginine supplementation is a promising strategy to alleviate PH, which is usually attributed to the inhibition of hypoxia-induced vascular remodelling. Based on other reports, the authors speculated that a different mechanism is involved in the effects of l-arginine: increased angiogenesis. Using a rat model of chronic hypoxia, the authors analyzed pulmonary hemodynamics and structure as well as vascular growth factor expression. Thus, the authors found that, in agreement with their hypothesis, l-arginine significantly increased hypoxia-induced angiogenesis, which was correlated with a decrease in PH. Mean vessel diameter, as previously thought, was not altered by hypoxia or l-arginine supplementation. The methods used by the authors were well chosen to answer the hypothesis and provide a data set that strongly supports their conclusions. Future research should clarify which signaling cascades are involved in the angiogenic effect of l-arginine.



Nitric oxide synthase modulates angiogenesis in response to tissue ischemia.

T Murohara, T Asahara, M Silver, C Bauters, H Masuda, C Kalka, M Kearney, D Chen, J F Symes, M C Fishman, P L Huang and J M Isner

Department of Medicine (Cardiology) and Department of Cardiothoracic Surgery and Biomedical Research, St. Elizabeth's Medical Center, Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston, Massachusetts 02135, USA.

Published June 1, 1998

We tested the hypothesis that endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS) modulates angiogenesis in two animal models in which therapeutic angiogenesis has been characterized as a compensatory response to tissue ischemia. We first administered L-arginine, previously shown to augment endogenous production of NO, to normal rabbits with operatively induced hindlimb ischemia. Angiogenesis in the ischemic hindlimb was significantly improved by dietary supplementation with L-arginine, compared to placebo-treated controls; angiographically evident vascularity in the ischemic limb, hemodynamic indices of limb perfusion, capillary density, and vasomotor reactivity in the collateral vessel-dependent ischemic limb were all improved by oral L-arginine supplementation. A murine model of operatively induced hindlimb ischemia was used to investigate the impact of targeted disruption of the gene encoding for ENOS on angiogenesis. Angiogenesis in the ischemic hindlimb was significantly impaired in eNOS-/- mice versus wild-type controls evaluated by either laser Doppler flow analysis or capillary density measurement. Impaired angiogenesis in eNOS-/- mice was not improved by administration of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), suggesting that eNOS acts downstream from VEGF. Thus, (a) eNOS is a downstream mediator for in vivo angiogenesis, and (b) promoting eNOS activity by L-arginine supplementation accelerates in vivo angiogenesis. These findings suggest that defective endothelial NO synthesis may limit angiogenesis in patients with endothelial dysfunction related to atherosclerosis, and that oral L-arginine supplementation constitutes a potential therapeutic strategy for accelerating angiogenesis in patients with advanced vascular obstruction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ujCHjzXJy8&feature=g-high-u

http://www.traditionaloven.com/tutorials/l-lysine_rich_foods.html

Interesting find!

I took it before, didn't have anything good or bad to say about it.

neonmonk, thanks for the video post i guess that guy and i were both thinking of arginine yesterday. however one thing i will note is that I'm fairly certain lysine is going to counteract the effects of arginine. arginine, if you have herpes, will make things worse, however taking lysine is shown to calm those outbreaks. so i would actually suggest taking arginine by itself so get the pump. plus i hear its great for libido enchanters.

J, i read you have to take it for several months to even begin to notice an effect, how long were you on it? and how much?

dudebro wrote:neonmonk, thanks for the video post i guess that guy and i were both thinking of arginine yesterday. however one thing i will note is that I'm fairly certain lysine is going to counteract the effects of arginine. arginine, if you have herpes, will make things worse, however taking lysine is shown to calm those outbreaks. so i would actually suggest taking arginine by itself so get the pump. plus i hear its great for libido enchanters.

J, i read you have to take it for several months to even begin to notice an effect, how long were you on it? and how much?

I dont know I think like 1g, and for a month. Apparently E.Cava has similar effects in regards to nitric oxide while maintaining even larger affects in other areas, thus I prepare to buy that one instead the next go around when I buy more supplements.
In regard specifically to blood flow and nitric oxide, I think I get enough of that with the large amount of water melon I eat every week, along with my usage of Gingko Biloba.

This kid doesn't know much about hair beyond what the drug companies will tell you about the DHT myth. I mean, he's recommending people supplement on Saw Palmetto, come on...if you want a limp dick, go for it.

#1 - Supplementing on Arginine will NOT result in an increase in NO (nitric oxide) in your body. Bodybuilding companies have been banking on that sham for a long time now. I pulled this one comment on Arginine from a bodybuilding site that rings true with me:

"Contains [he's referring to a product] Arginine AKG which is worthless and actively makes you a worse athlete taking it, in a double-blind randomized, placebo controlled study the group getting the so-called NO booster did fewer reps, with less weight than the group who got the placebo and had lower time-to-exhaustion in time trials. Not exactly what the supplement manufacturers claim, and they really hope you don't read PubMed. No surprise - arginine was worthless in the 1980ies when they first sold it as a supplement to teenagers into bodybuilding, and it's still worthless today except long enough time has passed that they hope we won't remember how much money we wasted on the crap the first time around."

#2 - Supplementing on Arginine will not inhibit DHT. No evidence of this whatsoever.

I used to be heavy into Arginine, dumped my share of money into supplements, and found through research years ago that it's worthless to your body to supplement on, and the only effective way was with a needle. However, that results in toxicity if I recall correctly...on my end, no results, and it certainly did no good for my hair.

I second Nid. In fact, would not advise to take arginine, you'll get more prolactin for one and for two possibly some effects you do want.

Even if arginine was effective at raising NO, there is a large part of the population and people with certain conditions that will not benefit but likely get worse from boosting NO. It raises levels of peroxynitrite and can worsen chemical sensitivities and overall oxidative load, not good for conditions like diabetes.

nice input guys.
nid.. yeah that kid has a lot of time on his hands and obviously just makes videos based on every article he's read verbatim. i personally never said arginine affects DHT. however...

i think arginine does in fact have some merit. i don't really want to say its 100% helpful based on studies, as I've noticed studies can contradict each other sometimes. Arginine has 12 metabolic pathways it can take... producing NO is definitely one of them.

I'm just saying, based totally on intuition, that if you have a chronic case of blood vessel deterioration and possibly depleted arginine in cells, there could be decreased rates of angiogenesis in the scalp. at this point its basically, this study vs another study. I've ready many forums threads where MANY members attribute at least some positive effects from arginine (libido, ED, improved vascular, etc). it can't all be in their heads you know. I've taken it before, 4 years ago, for a month.. it basically just made me extra horny from what i remember.

worst come worst, taking 1g orally won't produce positive or negative effects in my body.

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CS.. this study seems to contradict the prolactin increase? i don't think arginine is going to increase prolactin to dangerous levels in MEN.... we don't really have a need for prolactin i think arginine will only be used for what the body needs metabolically at the time.

J Endocrinol Invest. 1993 Jul-Aug;16(7):521-5.
Low dose orally administered arginine is able to enhance both basal and growth hormone-releasing hormone-induced growth hormone secretion in normal short children.
Bellone J, Bartolotta E, Cardinale G, Arvat E, Cherubini V, Aimaretti G, Maccario M, Mucci M, Camanni F, Ghigo E.
Source

Dipartimento di Fisiopatologia Clinica, Università di Torino, Italy.
Abstract

Aim of this study was to verify whether arginine (ARG), which likely inhibits hypothalamic somatostatin release, has an enhancing effect on the GHRH-induced GH rise, even when administered orally at low dose. To this goal we studied the effects of 4 g orally administered ARG, either hydrochloride (ARG-H) or aspartate (ARG-A), on both basal and GHRH (1 microgram/Kg i.v.)-stimulated GH secretion in 31 children with familial short stature (11 males and 20 females, aged 5.5-13.8 yr, pubertal stage I-III, and compared the results with those of i.v. infusion of 0.5 g/kg ARG-H. Oral ARG-H (Group A, n = 11) induced a significant increase of basal GH levels (4.2 +/- 1.3 vs 1.0 +/- 0.4 micrograms/L, p < 0.02) and enhanced the GH response to GHRH (41.1 +/- 8.6 vs 25.3 +/- 6.7 micrograms/L, p < 0.02). Oral ARG-A (Group B, n = 10) induced a slight, but not statistically significant increase in serum GH levels (3.4 +/- 1.5 vs 1.0 +/- 0.3 micrograms/L) and enhanced the GHRH-induced GH rise (49.7 +/- 9.8 vs 26.1 +/- 8.4 micrograms/L, p < 0.05). Intravenous ARG-H (Group C, n = 10) stimulated basal GH levels (6.2 +/- 1.2 vs 1.2 +/- 0.3 micrograms/L, p < 0.005) and increased the GHRH-induced GH rise (46.7 +/- 5.0 vs 17.1 +/- 2.3 micrograms/L, p < 0.005). This response was similar to those after oral ARG-H or ARG-A plus GHRH. No variation was observed in PRL levels after oral ARG (either ARG-H or ARG-A) and/or GHRH.

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anthony yes you are right NO can be broken down into a super oxide like peroxynitrite but i found this study that showed this only happened when systolic levels of arginine were LOW. taking as many antioxidants as i do, i am doubtful that there would be any huge acute negative cell toxicity. either way... i don't think a small dose like 1g will severely impact the body.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC39102/pdf/pnas01517-0566.pdf

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1996 June 25; 93(13): 6770–6774.
PMCID: PMC39102
Nitric oxide synthase generates superoxide and nitric oxide in arginine-depleted cells leading to peroxynitrite-mediated cellular injury.

Y Xia, V L Dawson, T M Dawson, S H Snyder, and J L Zweier

Besides synthesizing nitric oxide (NO), purified neuronal NO synthase (nNOS) can produce superoxide (.O2-) at lower L-Arg concentrations. By using electron paramagnetic resonance spin-trapping techniques, we monitored NO and .O2- formation in nNOS-transfected human kidney 293 cells. In control transfected cells, the Ca2+ ionophore A23187 triggered NO generation but no .O2- was seen. With cells in L-Arg-free medium, we observed .O2- formation that increased as the cytosolic L-Arg levels decreased, while NO generation declined. .O2- formation was virtually abolished by the specific NOS blocker, N-nitro-L-arginine methyl ester (L-NAME). Nitrotyrosine, a specific nitration product of peroxynitrite, accumulated in L-Arg-depleted cells but not in control cells. Activation by A23187 was cytotoxic to L-Arg-depleted, but not to control cells, with marked lactate dehydrogenase release. The cytotoxicity was largely prevented by either superoxide dismutase or L-NAME. Thus, with reduced L-Arg availability NOS elicits cytotoxicity by generating .O2- and NO that interact to form the potent oxidant peroxynitrite. Regulating arginine levels may provide a therapeutic approach to disorders involving .O2-/NO-mediated cellular injury.

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**edited to add:

if you really feel like arginine is causing bitch tits or low sex drive (which it shouldn't based on significant libido increase reports, especially if its just a few grams orally) then by all means stop taking it. everyone responds differently to supplements. so its best to try it out yourself for a while and make your own conclusions for everything.

I've also heard that arginine as a combo with lysine, ornithine, and perhaps glutamine taken before sleep is a potent HGH secretagogue. I wonder if we could turn up any solid research to shed some light on this.

does this have any validity? http://www.hairloss-research.org/UpdateBilberry11-10.html

anthonyspencer54 wrote:I've also heard that arginine as a combo with lysine, ornithine, and perhaps glutamine taken before sleep is a potent HGH secretagogue. I wonder if we could turn up any solid research to shed some light on this.

I've heard of this too, when i went searching for more references i stumbled across body building sights that claim you should take arginine pyroglutamate and lysine together. Of course the validity of this is questionable since i can't find any studies, only links to health sites that just flat out say arginine with lysine=increases hgh production.

its recommended to take on empty stomach to increases chances of most absorption.

i guess no one can account for the contradicting studies i posted...?

Dudebro,

Those were interesting studies. The first one seemed to confirm some of the things I've heard regarding the HGH stimulating effects of Arginine. The only thing that might confound that is that there was no real control group as far as normal-statured individuals. Would the same effect occur in a normal individual who wasn't growth hormone deficient to begin with? Another perhaps confounding issue was the age. We weren't specified on the age range which would have been important, as we know the growth hormone activity in children is generally higher as is. Could we expect the same effect from arginine in a healthy, normal statured adult?

As far as the NO and peroxynitrite study, if it is what it says it is, then it would appear that a diet adequate in protein, and thus arginine, might mitigate the oxidative byproducts of the NO production. That would be an important finding especially if arginine does indeed induce the growth hormone stimulus in normal individuals. It would have been nice to have known what type of chelate they were using as well.

Why were the cells in this study transfected with the ionophore? Was it simply to be able to introduce an excitatory state? Either way, it looks as though cell excitation by inorganic ions has its toxic effects largely through NOS, by generating peroxynitrite and superoxide in situations of L-arginine depletion. You can see that by the increase in LDH, the excitatory state severely effects cellular oxidative metabolism and begins to favor anaerobic. In the presence of cell excitation by Ca 2+ in the control cells, this toxicity was prevented by adequate L-arginine. More evidence for a diet adequate in protein!

And also, a different idea, if they could show that increased blood sugar or lipid products were able to increase cell excitation in the same manner, and also through NOS in addition to normal mitochondrial output, that would be very big.

greats thoughts anthony, I'm glad you're inputing. i don't think its possible to dismiss a supplement like this without trying it because like i said the studies are confounding.

anthony what did u mean by what u said above, i don't follow.

i just got my arginine ill post updates soon

if the problem is solely your scalp(circulation), why do bald men usually have excessive body hair? Obviously something is going on systemically. Ever notice how CausticSymmetry NEVER EVER responds to these circulation theory threads? It's bogus that's why. Baldness is caused by endocrine system, it's either unbalanced or weak. It has nothing to do with circulation. Let CS confirm that for you

Dudebro,

I thought those studies were very interesting. I wish that first one had revealed the exact age range. I think conducting the same study on normal, healthy adults would be even more insightful. We just don't know if the HGH boost would still occur in an adult, because with children, their growth hormone levels tend to be much more sensitive.

As far as what I meant by that last comment, it relates to that second study you posted. In that study the cells were transfected with an ionosphore, which as far as I know is a bacterial diffusion facilitator and helps ions get across the cell membrane. In this case ,when activated, it carried calcium into the cell, which is an excitatory ion, too much is cytotoxic. The really interesting part about the study was that it showed that the cytotoxicity was eliminated in an arginine rich environment. Interesting.

What I was saying was I'd like to see a study on the cytotoxic effects of excess blood glucose, which I think is a big reason for insulin resistance being a protective mechanism to protect against the cell getting too much glucose. If there were factors, like arginine was in that study, that could eliminate this cytotoxicity, that would be epic for something like type two diabetes. I'd like to see a study that used R-lipoic acid, or perhaps NAC, to see if an environment rich in these types of antioxidants prevents that cytotoxicity if it exists at all.

Moby,

I'm not arguing with you on the hormonal component, I completely agree this is an androgen mediated condition. I posted a study here somewhere showing that body hair, like axillary hair in the armpit as well as beard hair, the dermal papilla tend to have more testosterone as the active androgen, whereas scalp follicles tend to have a higher proportion of 5AR enzyme and DHT is the more active androgen. I believe it is this higher proportion of 5AR in this region, and the resulting proportion of DHT that is the inflammatory stimulator, and sebum is a big component as well.

As far as CS, he has come out and said that the reason he stays out of these debates is that he's never tried the manual methods because he doesn't need to. From his progress in the last several years he's at a point where he's happy where he is at. So I think its a matter of he's found something that works for him and isn't devoting his time to either trying the manual methods, or doing the research necessary to confirm or refute the theories because it just isn't practical for him. Based on his regimen its pretty obvious that his focus lies more in nutritional and supplemental means of battling the issue, so it makes sense that that is where he'd focus his research.

ohhhh ok gotcha i see where you're going with that. definitely would be interesting. yeah, finding suitable environments that negate negative byproducts of essential/frequent reactions would be clutch! but i bet if you searched pubmed for a few hours you would definitely find something already done lol. then again i highly doubt anyone would fund this study as the diabetes industry would be out of business.

Moby.... no one is saying the SOLE problem is circulation. its plays a big fraction in some people's perception that believe in brushing..... bald men that usually have a lot of body hair have a lot of DHT which influences coarse, dense hairs in the body, especially public and facial areas. an excessive amount of DHT AND its biological effects (I'm betting on autoimmune factors) on the scalp IN COMBINATION with decreased blood circulation wrecks havoc of baldness. the frontal and top scalp constantly experiences a great amount (the GREATEST amount actually) of gravitational force, this is going to affect the internal conditions. secondly the vascular system up there seems like it would be more susceptible to lower functionality due to it being positioned the way it is. Personally i don't care what CS says or doesn't say, no offense. and for the damn record, he's commented that he'd rather not get into manual method because he's content with his supplementation results. nor do i care for you going into every thread dealing with circulation and trying to start arguments about it. if you don't like it, then seriously piss off. look, its not like your questioning people in the sense you want to understand it or intellectually, respectfully debate it. you are doing around saying the circulation theory is wrong in every goddamn thread. and to be frank, you can confirm these nuts in your mouth.

lol anthony beat me to what i was going to say, in a more polite manner than i intended.

I find it confusing that CausticSymmetry believe MPB is caused by hypothyroid, but his top6 "regime" is only partly or very little focused on this issue - more like mitigating damage with antioxidants. Not even iodine - one would find iodine essential in the top6 if we were to believe that MPB is caused by hypothyroid when CausticSymmetry say that is the case.

Anyway I heard so many times here from the "true believers" that MPB has "been defeated from any imaginable angle" or some similar horsehsit. No it hasnt - and the majority of people are still losing hair.

anthonyspencer54 wrote:
As far as CS, he has come out and said that the reason he stays out of these debates is that he's never tried the manual methods because he doesn't need to. From his progress in the last several years he's at a point where he's happy where he is at. So I think its a matter of he's found something that works for him and isn't devoting his time to either trying the manual methods, or doing the research necessary to confirm or refute the theories because it just isn't practical for him. Based on his regimen its pretty obvious that his focus lies more in nutritional and supplemental means of battling the issue, so it makes sense that that is where he'd focus his research.

I've never personally said its been beaten. I'm saying there are members who claim they've made progress and are happy where they are at. I know for the majority its still a losing battle, but ultimately, if you can slow that loss down until it becomes a little more socially appropriate to lose hair then that will always be more beneficial. I am unarguably still thinning. I've said many times that I am, its just my beliefs about it have changed and I've gotten a lot more comfortable in my own skin. If at the time I still had most of my coverage you would have told me that I could keep it until I was 40 or 45 before it started thinning by using the strategies here, I would have jumped on it. I think hair loss becomes the biggest problem when it happens too early.

To me personally, if what you are doing isn't addressing 1 of 4 things, it will get you no where:

1) Androgens (we know some pharmaceuticals grow hair this way, its just the worst strategy one can take from a whole health perspective).

2) The genes that are responsible for distribution, sensitivity, and expression of androgen receptors in scalp tissue and also for the steroid conversion enzymes (gene therapy; science hasn't come this far yet, so far as we know anyway).

3) Bacterial/sebaceous component; androgens upregulate sebum production but due to follicular keratinocyte infiltration, sebum flow becomes challenges and so to does the normal bacterial population within the sebum, and consequently, the fatty acid breakdown within sebum changes and so does the inflammatory response. (Antimicrobials and sebum reducers have shown some benefit).

4) Stunt the inflammatory response and fibrosis; ultimately the fibrosis and hair thinning comes from the inflammatory response. This is all CS territory and the goal of the top 6. This would also encompass removal of heavy metals, healing the gut, and fixing the diet.

just an update on the arginine after a week: i havnt noticed anything specifically different with my hair since I'm doing fairly a lot of stuff for it.

however, in combination with ginkgo biloba and 1-2g of arginine in the morning.. i am able to concentrate "slightly" better when i study.

i am 110% sure that I've gotten an extra libido boost in addition to my regular one. i normally have maybe 1 erection throughout the day for the past few months (i stopped masterbating cold 3 months ago, so i naturally had a flatline) but this past week I've been getting erections left and right sometimes when I'm by myself and have an extremely small sexual thought. i don't know if its in my head but what are the chances a placebo effect actually causes increased erections... throughout the day, I'm not thinking of purposely getting an erection you know? it just happens, a lot.
also i have not had the urge to masterbate in 3 months.. since the past few days it was like my dick was literally thinking by itself.

i barely kissed my gf yesterday and i get an erection... its been a loooooong time (6 months ish) since thats happened... again, to sum it up idk about the effect on my hair yet but its definitely helped to increase my libido. i have to actively avoid any ass or tit eye contact in public to keep from being taken under by the devil lol.