Sebum and DHT and Accutane

I read this over at hairlosstalk.com and thought it interesting. Wanted to share with you guys.

Ok I was at my GP not too long ago, an Egyptian doctor who I have been seeing for about a decade.

For the first time we spoke about my hair loss, well well fkn well.. what a surprise when that topic was brought up.

Turns out he used to work for Merck & Sharpe as a researcher back in Egypt and he was booted out for his theory on hair loss. This is no bullshit.. this guy was a fkn knowledge machine. All this time!

DHT isn't the cause of hair loss is. Sebum is. This is why:

DHT triggers the glands in your follicle to overproduce sebum. Bacteria gathers in this overflow and your immune system then attacks the bacteria, INCLUDING the hair follicle with inflammation. He said it's very similar to the process of acne.

Propecia works by stopping the DHT triggering the sebum overflow. He said Propecia could make your hair worse if like me hyperandrogenicity causes the extra oil.

He said he proved this theory by putting an early stage patient on low dose accutane. He said the patient regrew hair. He said this is why Retinoid helps, not because it tackles DHT, but because it tackles the sebaceous gland and stops the production of sebum.. hence stopping the gathering of bacteria.. hence no inflammation and no immune response.

I also asked why some medications work and why some don't. He said in theory it should work for all, but there are 2 reasons it doesnt:

1. Internal drugs can cause hyperandrogenicity like I've experienced
2. Topical drugs don't reach the follicle BECAUSE of the sebum build up blocking it. He said minoxidil works best with retin-A not because retin-A helps hair loss through DHT, but helps the minoxidil flow down the follicle wall by eliminating sebum build up.

He said he never really gave it the years of research it deserves, but his theory is ultra-low-doses of Accutane stops hair loss. He said 10mg twice a week will do the job.

He said when he kept trying to push this idea through his experiments, Merck kicked him off the research team."

What do you guys think about this? Caustic? Nid?

You may want to read this :

Accutane Horror

halfempty - Very interesting article.

I had hoped that curing hair loss would be this simple--eliminating overproduction of sebum. I think reducing sebum production
can reduce hair loss significantly, but it doesn't work 100%

Topical Lithium/DMSO works extremely well to reduce sebum for example. Topical Lithium gel is used to treat seborrheic dermatitis. Roughly 13%
do not respond to it favorably, and tend to experience redness or inflammation.

Reducing foods that increase insulin, which create inflammation and DHT will reduce sebum. One theory is that the proliferation of Malassezia yeasts
can lead to hair loss, due to an over production of sebum. Since Malassezia yeasts use phopholipase enzyme to release arachidonic acid and its metabolites
leading to inflammation.

In us balding types, we have lower levels of endogenous antioxidants, such as Glutathione, Superoxide Dismutase and Catalase. So even if we get sebum to
a very low output, we still need to fortify ourselves with antioxidants and Omega-3 fatty acids.

lund wrote:You may want to read this :

Accutane Horror

hmm, they mentioned very heavy sides caused by accutane, which includes thinning hair...

is oral lithium orotate of any use in reducing sebum on the scalp? the topical doesnt seem to do it for me so i was wondering there was any evidence for it if taken orally?

edci - Yes oral Lithium Orotate or Lithium Asparte will reduce sebum. 10 milligrams daily is usually sufficient.

Regarding Accutaine, it's horrible stuff would avoid at all costs.

A couple of thoughts came to mind in reading this thread.

First off regarding accutane, it is known to be a poison, and really isn't worth the risk, as CS said. That said, the post specifically mentioned "ULTRA LOW DOSES" of the stuff. This is a worthy distinction, as it may entirely exclude the common accutane experience.

My experience also matches CS's regarding sebum: good, but not enough to do the trick.

The post also seems to bring up a three pronged problem: bacteria, sebum, DHT. Currently, I am a huge fan of mag oil, left on. I think its major action is in dealing with bacteria/fungi. A separate test to confirm this has been my use of it on my workout clothes, which have to be discarded regularly because of heavy perspiration, which renders them mildewy after a while. I've attempted to prolong their life with everything from lavender, to oxy sport soaps, short of bleach. Mag oil seems to eradicate the bad with a swift and decisive blow. (Actually, you need to let the stuff dry in the clothes for max protection, as well as on the scalp.)

Perhaps four-pronged regarding immune response. This is where allergies must be addressed.

thats interesting gibson because i think allergies/immune system weakness is a big issue for me....has anyone here used anything for allergies that has really warded them off, because i have traditionally had the sniffles since I was a kid, and now it also affects my skin (ie it gets very red around the cheeks and sometimes peels, i think its eczema but dermatologists are useless)...i think addressing allergies would be a huge boost for me, but i seem to get drowned in information when looking for herbal/natural remedies for allergies because almost every herb out there claims to ward off allergies..

edci - There is a post on here not too long ago with a two-hour interview that is all on iodine. In one section it talked about how iodine can reduce the conversion from histadine to histamine, eliminating or reducing allergies.
So perhaps Lugol's solution will help.

Where eczema is concerned, usually zinc and omega-3 with GLA together will eliminate but, there is always contact dermatitis with detergents and other triggers to watch out for.

edci wrote:thats interesting gibson because i think allergies/immune system weakness is a big issue for me....has anyone here used anything for allergies that has really warded them off, because i have traditionally had the sniffles since I was a kid, and now it also affects my skin (ie it gets very red around the cheeks and sometimes peels, i think its eczema but dermatologists are useless)...i think addressing allergies would be a huge boost for me, but i seem to get drowned in information when looking for herbal/natural remedies for allergies because almost every herb out there claims to ward off allergies..

Allergies may be impossible to treat unless you know what you are allergic to. Continuous runny nose/swollen glands is a red flag and you should get a lid on it. Worse case scenario, later in life your immune system is too weak to deal with a serious illness.

Currently, I am getting shots, immunotherapy, which is basically low doses of what i am allergic to to build up my immune system. For household mold, outside of remediation, this is hands down the best air purifier:

http://www.allergybuyersclubshopping.com/airfree-air-sterilizers.html?CMP=KNC-pkgoap-030107&HBX_PK=air+free&HBX_OU=5 0

I a good alternative for hayfever to the shots would be homeopathy as it operates on the same principle: treat like with like.

I have had luck with homeopathy when dealing with hayfever with this brand:

http://www.smallflower.com/brand/br216?gclid=CK_yjsbmqJkCFQw9GgodyDBRpw

But homeopathy is hit or miss.

i just joined this site after reading this.. i was so anxious to reply to this thread that i screwed my user name up. its supposed to read "screwthefda" anyways... this research really does have truth to it for sure. my first time on accutane was when i was 16 years old and because of my young age i was put on a very low dose of this poison... i remember my face totally cleared up and all greasiness was gone from my face and scalp.. also my hair seriously did grow thicker and so much fuller, within 3 months i had hair like a lion!! seriously, i had an unnatural amount of hair after taking low dose accutane.. i went from looking like any average teenager with no hair problems to looking like lionoh from the thundercats!! it was awesome! i blamed it on healthy eating though because back then i was trying to eat as much greens as i could to clear my skin up and i thought it nourished my hair. it wasn't the greens though cos they don't do jack diddly for me now.... i stopped taking accutane and soon enough, 1 year later maybe my skin became the oily boil riddled mess that it used to be... when i decided to go on accutane again i was given the adult dose, two or three, 20 mg pills a day i think... this is when i really started seeing my hair change for the worse, i was thinning and shedding like crazy, and i was suicidally depressed.. also my intestines felt like exploding and my joints were so swollen that i couldn't move for a couple weeks... im now 28 years old and my hair sure isn't what it used to be and i even still get the occasional zit... im not bald, and i have full coverage but my hair has weakened a lot and im sure its due to accutane and NOTHING else... my dad is 66 and has all his hair and so does my brother and so do all of my uncles on both sides. seriously.. anyways.. i think that there is for sure truth to the low dose accutane treatment because at 16 i saw my hair flourish like never before. the only thing is, im scared to touch it again after what it did to me and how long it took me to get over everything... they should really open this case again.. someone has to research it further because i honestly had some crazy growth on an already full head of hair..

good luck to all you accutane p.o.w's

I used to suffer with it quite bad when I was 19-21 years old (I'm 31 now) but I notice a lot of crossover with treatments that I think for certain suseptible people the link is definitely there between acne and MPB.

Look at the natural health forum of this acne site:
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Nutrition-and-holistic-heal-f16.html

you'll see the same sort of articles about Omega fatty acids, Insulin resistance and yeast as you do on this site.

As an aside though I didn't take Isotretinoin (Accutane, etc) but instead was on a Tetracycline antibiotic and it worked. My hair was pretty good then and I paid little attention to how much I had so cant say whether it improved it or not.

Anybody else had any experiences with this?

I've been reading a decent amount on this lately. Among those who used ultra-low doses (10mg 2x per week or so) none of them reported the hair loss problems often associated with accutane, and many reported thicker hair.

The effect may be somewhat similar to using retin-a all over the head. I'm thinking that it may be useful in cycles.

CausticSymmetry wrote:edci - Yes oral Lithium Orotate or Lithium Asparte will reduce sebum. 10 milligrams daily is usually sufficient.

Regarding Accutaine, it's horrible stuff would avoid at all costs.

CS - I've read that lithium can aggravate acne.

http://www.acnesource.org/facts_what-causes-acne_oil.htm

"Medications. Certain hormonal medications that are androgenic in nature may aggravate acne by increasing oil production and pore blockage. Examples include anabolic steroids, and a component of birth control pills called progestin. Other commonly used medications that may aggravate acne include lithium, and some anti-seizure medications."

Is the kind of lithium what matters?

scottyc33 - Absolutely, Lithium carbonate is a good example of something to avoid. This is the form of lithium that "everybody knows about," it is the kind that is prescribed widely for bipolar disorder. It's toxic because it's not very bioavailable so this mineral must be taken in dosages typically between 300 and 600 milligram amounts.

This is in contrast to the 5 to 10 milligram doses of Lithium orotate or aspartate that achieve the same results. They are simply more bioavailable so there is considerably less toxicity potential. One very well known physician who has used lithiuim in his practice for over 30 years suggests that taking omega-3 fatty acid will further reduce any toxicity issues.

Lithium carbonate in its typical prescribed doses can cause hair loss and other problems, not to mention being thyroid suppressive. High dose lithium was once used to treat hyperthyroidism.

Getting back to safe lithium, the gluconate form has been studied as a topical gel for seborrhoeic dermatitis.

CS - what about Cudweed extract as a naturally occurrnig form of Lithium?

M

So I've been digging a little deeper into the accutane approach to hair loss and found a thread on another forum where someone cited the doctor's accutane hair loss story and undertook his own trial of it. Well he claimed he was having success two months in or so, stopping shedding and claiming new vellus hairs. However many people were attacking him and didn't believe it or didn't like that he was using accutane so he announced he wasn't going to post anymore and either left or made a new account.

So, I'm close to trying it myself, but it'd be great to find a more natural route that achieves similar results. I've been taking lithium, zinc, mag, vit a, vit d, vit c, msm, iodine, selenium, 2/3 of the top 6, a probiotic (which was effective at halting most of my acne when I was younger), + others, trying to drink lots of water (could do better on this), cleaned up diet, getting sun, etc. I eliminated my acne years ago but my face and scalp still get oily later in the day and then I sleep with that sebum on my scalp all night. Also, I've taken b5/pantothenic acid for a few months with no perceivable effects on sebum, it's often touted as something of a remedy for that and has actually been cited as causing hair loss by a number of reports.

What else have you experienced or read that reduces sebum? Preferably in the same ballpark as accutane, although I know that's asking quite a bit.

Topically:
Polysorbate 80
Bentonite Clay

They suck the sebum and crud right out your scalp.

I've started using them before my LLLT helmet therapy to ensure the light could penetrate deeper (then realised that being more aggressive in sebum control in itself is probably helping too)

Also, hygiene.
Fresh pillow sheets every week.
Wash hair plenty (I've been on the look out for a good shampoo)

I had moderate acne as a teenager and still get breakouts in my early 20s. I wonder how hard it would be to get a prescription for a very low dose? I've definitely started producing way more sebum as I've started losing hair so this theory makes sense to me.

Columbo wrote:Topically:
Polysorbate 80
Bentonite Clay

They suck the sebum and crud right out your scalp.

I've started using them before my LLLT helmet therapy to ensure the light could penetrate deeper (then realised that being more aggressive in sebum control in itself is probably helping too)

Also, hygiene.
Fresh pillow sheets every week.
Wash hair plenty (I've been on the look out for a good shampoo)

Ah yes I try to flip my pillow over after two days and then change the case after another two.

I've only use clay once and it removed a lot of hairs so I'm kind of wary to do it again unless I were to get a buzz cut which is looking more and more like a good idea as far as applying topicals, but still not something I'm completely comfortable with even though I'm headed toward a hairless head anyway.

I just recalled a potential acne cure that got many favorable reviews on ance.org, that being rubbing ice cubes all over for a few minutes or longer. Not sure if this reduces sebum though. Perhaps at the very least it would reduce inflammation.