Concern about PM and Genistein isoflavone

PM contains two isoflavone that are also main constituents of soy, and might be associated
with some concern ...

The good thing about PM is the miroestrol, but it also is rich in genistein and daidezin, which might be a cause
of concern. Maybe we should consider moving back to lignans (spruce of flax), dim and maca.

From wiki

Some studies have raised the concern that genistein might increase the risk of leukemia, because it inhibits the enzyme topoisomerase which results in double strand DNA breaks, which are, in turn, mutagenic. Some cancer patients whose chemotherapy drugs inhibited topoisomerase later developed leukemia. NCI researchers have completed animal studies on genistein with no adverse effects being seen. [see discussion page][7]

Regardless, soy's phytoestrogens, or isoflavones, have been definitely shown to depress thyroid function and to cause infertility in every animal species studied so far.[8] [9]

Genistein's chief method of activity is as a tyrosine kinase inhibitor. Tyrosine kinases are less widespread than their ser/thr counterparts but implicated in almost all cell growth and proliferation signal cascades. Genistein has been used to selectively target pre B-cells via conjugation with an antibody. This highly successful study in mice has promising benefits for future chemotherapy

Effects in males

Isoflavones can act like estrogen, stimulating development and maintenance of female characteristics or they can block cells from using cousins of estrogen. In vitro studies have proven genistein to induce apoptosis of testicular cells at certain levels, thus raising concerns about effects it could have on male fertility.[10]

IH has talked about this a few times, I'll leave it to him.

cpio - Okay, (1) Note, unlike a chemotherapy drug, which has no bio-modification, it says here: "NCI researchers have completed animal studies on genistein with no adverse effects being seen."

(2) Studies show that changes to thyroid are only temporary, and the dosage required may not be high enough in this case to even change the thyroid. For example, it has been found that thyroid reverts to normal after a few months on high dose isoflavones.

(3) These are not from soy, and often soy often accompanies an allergy to many people.

(4) It is possible that a high dose could affect sexual function, so dosage is important. Studies do show concerning Kudzu that sexual function is not impaired at an appropriate dose. Fertility was not adversely effect in studies on monkeys.

What about leukemia??I´m tired of all this stuff...This way I´m gonna give up on PM...

CausticSymmetry wrote:cpio - Okay, (1) Note, unlike a chemotherapy drug, which has no bio-modification, it says here: "NCI researchers have completed animal studies on genistein with no adverse effects being seen."

(2) Studies show that changes to thyroid are only temporary, and the dosage required may not be high enough in this case to even change the thyroid. For example, it has been found that thyroid reverts to normal after a few months on high dose isoflavones.

(3) These are not from soy, and often soy often accompanies an allergy to many people.

(4) It is possible that a high dose could affect sexual function, so dosage is important. Studies do show concerning Kudzu that sexual function is not impaired at an appropriate dose. Fertility was not adversely effect in studies on monkeys.

I´ve found this one about leukemia and genistein: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/77/4/875

"This suggests that, for most patients, the concentrations of genistein achieved even at the 600 mg/d genistein dose were not sufficient to induce DNA strand breakage. "

Wich dose of genistein has a capsule of PM (80mg)???Immorthal?

Another one,and very complete,it talks about several things like vit.D3,alpha lipoic acid,vit.E,curcumin,etc:

"Soy extract. Soy extracts contain high levels of genistein, an inhibitor of protein tyrosine kinase, an enzyme that becomes dysfunctional in cancer cells. Protein tyrosine kinase activity is reduced by genistein, subsequently impeding the growth of cancer cells (Carlo-Stella C et al 1996b; Carlo-Stella C et al 1996a).

Studies have shown that genistein increased the potency of the chemotherapeutic agent bleomycin against the leukemia cell line HL-60, and reduced the damage this agent normally causes to normal lymphocytes, thus it may reduce normal tissue toxicity associated with chemotherapy (Lee R et al 2004).

The benefits of soy extract may be more significant in leukemia cases with a mutant p53 gene, making the leukemia cells more sensitive to chemotherapy. For example, genistein derived from soy extracts has been shown to increases expression of the gene that helps to suppress cancer cell growth (i.e. normal p53 tumor suppressor gene) in solid tumors that acts to protect the body from cancer development (Lian F et al 1999).

The presence of mutant p53 genes is determined by a pathologist’s examination of the leukemia cells. Consult your physician to determine if the pathologist performing an immunohistochemistry test for mutant or functional p53 discovered mutant p53; alternatively ask your physician to perform this test via Genzyme Genetics (formerly IMPATH Laboratories): http://www.genzymeimpath.com/lymphoma_leukemia.html."

http://welness2008.blogspot.com/2008/02/leukemia-2.html

So,Immorthal,what´s the conclusion???

sissi - I can see that you're confused, but already addressed the issue. I would not be worried about it for the reasons previously stated.

Understand that the context of Genistein was within the parameters of a chemotherapy drug--and Genistein has not been found to cause it on its own.

To state this bluntly, the sick cancer industry warns against taking something that interfere with their own toxic poisons.

Leukemia is a treatable condition and if I or anyone in my family had it, the last thing I would do is use chemotherapy.

If you research anything in the supplement world, you're likely to find articles raising doubt, especially in the context of drug medicine. A little information can be dangerous, it's rarely as simple as some articles may imply.

But does genistein increase the risk of any cancer??

CausticSymmetry wrote:sissi - I can see that you're confused, but already addressed the issue. I would not be worried about it for the reasons previously stated.

Understand that the context of Genistein was within the parameters of a chemotherapy drug--and Genistein has not been found to cause it on its own.

To state this bluntly, the sick cancer industry warns against taking something that interfere with their own toxic poisons.

Leukemia is a treatable condition and if I or anyone in my family had it, the last thing I would do is use chemotherapy.

If you research anything in the supplement world, you're likely to find articles raising doubt, especially in the context of drug medicine. A little information can be dangerous, it's rarely as simple as some articles may imply.

I have taken PM for two months now with a two week break in between, and have no sides anylonger (no reduced libido).

I think the body needs time to adapt to miroestrol.

I got concerned regarding the daidzein and genistein since they are two primary constituents of say isoflavones, which
some say are problematic! And they are also found in PM. However, it just dawned on me that the amounts in PM
are almost trace like compared to soy .. I dont have the PM bottle here, but as far as I remember the label reads
something like 20 mcg genistein per 1 gr herb (two capsules Aintelrol caps). Thats very little. For daidzein it is greater
but still very little. If this is true then it is just great since miroestrol is what matters.

Unfortunatly I read that there is some indication of small amounts of isoflavones could be counter healthy while larger amounts could be healthy. Talk about confusion!

To wrap this up on a positive note: I think IH's regime is starting to work 100% for me again, you folks can easily
guess how I (might have) corrected the problem that made the regime ineffective. But I have had progress before
only to relapse into another round of shedding, so I almost dare not mention this (this time).

cpio wrote:

To wrap this up on a positive note: I think IH's regime is starting to work 100% for me again, you folks can easily
guess how I (might have) corrected the problem that made the regime ineffective. But I have had progress before
only to relapse into another round of shedding, so I almost dare not mention this (this time).

How cpio?I know you don t dare to mention!Hard to believe that adding PM miroestrol to IH's regimen just made the difference?Is it so?I m really hesitating to procede w PM cos my libido already sucks and I surely don t want it any worse.Why has IH's regimen been ineffective till now?And what PM adds to it?

Edony--

If anything, PM will increase your libido. It fixes you up from a hormonal perspective if you give it a few months to work its magic. Ever consider that users that report lowered libido may have unnaturally high libido? Something to consider. PM may be simply restoring your libido to what it ought to be.

sissi - cpio pointed out that the Genistein content is extremely low in PM Kudzu. You're more likely to get Genistein in other foods you are eating.

Most important, there are a few studies that show that PM Kudzu prevents cancer. I will list them. Keep in mind that according to statistics native people of Thailand that eat PM Kuzdu has 1/10th the cancer rates of their western counterparts. So you can see I'm clearly not worried about cancer with respect to PM Kudzu.

Maturitas. 2007 Oct 20;58(2):174-81. Epub 2007 Sep 17.
Pretreatment with phytoestrogen-rich plant decreases breast tumor incidence and exhibits lower profile of mammary ERalpha and ERbeta.
Cherdshewasart W, Panriansaen R, Picha P.

Department of Biology, Faculty of Science, Chulalongkorn University, Phyathai Road, Patumwan, Bangkok 10330, Thailand. cwichai@sc.chula.ac.th

OBJECTIVE: Phytoestrogens have been reported to exhibit antiproliferation to human breast cancer cells in vitro. We tested the phytoestrogen-rich, Pueraria mirifica against rat breast cancer induction in vivo. METHODS: The weanling female Spargue-Dawley rats were pretreated with P. mirifica tuberous powder at a dosage of 0, 10, 100 and 1000 mg/kg BW/day for four consecutive weeks. Mammary tumor development was then induced with a single dose of 7,12-DMBA, 80 mg/kg BW, followed by a weekly examination for size and multiplicity of mammary tumors for 20 weeks and finally a necropsy. Mammary tissues were investigated for the virulence of tumor and also monoclonal antibody stained against ERalpha and ERbeta. RESULTS: Pretreatment of 1000 mg/(kgBWday) of P. mirifica tuberous powder resulted in decreasing of the virulence of rat tumor development. The mammary tumor tissues exhibited lower profile of ERalpha and ERbeta as well as ERalpha/ERbeta. CONCLUSION: P. mirifica exhibited prevention of 7,12-DMBA-induced rat mammary tumors, with a proposed mechanism of strong competitive binding of its phytoestrogens to ERalpha and/or synthesis suppressor of ERalpha.

Exp Mol Med. 2005 Apr 30;37(2):111-20.
Antitumor activity of spinasterol isolated from Pueraria roots.
Jeon GC, Park MS, Yoon DY, Shin CH, Sin HS, Um SJ.

Department of Bioscience and Biotechnology/Institute of Bioscience, Sejong University, Seoul 143-747, Korea.

We purified phytoestrogens from Pueraria root (Pueraria mirifica from Thailand and Pueraria lobata from Korea), which is used as a rejuvenating folk medicine in Thailand and China. Dried, powdered plant material was extracted with 100% ethanol and further separated by concentration, filtration, and thin layer silica gel chromatography. Using the fractions obtained during separation, we first investigated their cytotoxicity in several cancer cell lines from various tissues. The ethanol-extracted components (PE1, PE4) had significant antiproliferative effects on breast cancer cell lines, including MCF-7, ZR-75-1, MDA-MB-231, SK-BR-3, and Hs578T. Second, we compared these results with the cytotoxic effects of known flavonoids, sterols, and coumarins from Pueraria root. The known compounds were not as effective, and occurred in a different polarity region on HPLC. Third, further separation resulted in the isolation of eight different components (Sub PE-A to -H). One of these, PE-D, affected the growth of some breast cancer cell lines (MCF-7, MDA- MB-231) in a dose- and time-dependent manner, as well as the growth of ovarian (2774) and cervical cancer cells (HeLa). Finally, a transfection assay showed that this component had an estrogenic effect similar to 17beta - estradiol, which activates both estrogen receptor alpha (ERalpha) and ERbeta. The NMR analysis determined that spinasterol (stigmasta-7, 22-dien-3beta-ol) is an active cytotoxic component of Pueraria root.

Source naturals "Soy complex" (1000 mg) has a ratio of daidzein (17 mg) and genistein (4 mg) compared to
PM ainterol (1000 mg) with daidzein (0.074 mg) and genistein (0.015 mg), so that is in fact very little of that
stuff in PM compared to soy. More stuff in PM: daidzin (0.40 mg) and Puerarin (0.62 mg), genistin (0.088 mg).

Curiously miroestrol does not appear on the list, but I remember something like 0.040 mg, which is also very little
but since it is so powerful (in the thousands compared to other phytoestrogen), that is just perfect.

I could not find any ratio of isoflavone for kudzu loboata.

PM might upregulate your sexdrive. It is worth a try.

If you try it out let us know how you fare with it.

edony wrote:

cpio wrote:

To wrap this up on a positive note: I think IH's regime is starting to work 100% for me again, you folks can easily
guess how I (might have) corrected the problem that made the regime ineffective. But I have had progress before
only to relapse into another round of shedding, so I almost dare not mention this (this time).

How cpio?I know you don t dare to mention!Hard to believe that adding PM miroestrol to IH's regimen just made the difference?Is it so?I m really hesitating to procede w PM cos my libido already sucks and I surely don t want it any worse.Why has IH's regimen been ineffective till now?And what PM adds to it?