Vellus Fertiliser + Papain / Bromelain Topical Diary

After three months of twiddling my thumbs I've finally gotten round to getting my Papain and Bromelain.

My Vellus fertiliser seems to generate lots of vellus hair and comprises:

Aloe Vera, Garlic, Castor Oil

Applied a few times a day

I am now adding a tablespoon of papain and a 1/2 tablespoon of bromelain to the mix.

My intention is to use this thread to build up a diary....

Yesterday was day 1 -

My scalp is a lot less greasy - and my hair is a lot more 'stood up' than normal - I havnt even applied todays batch yet... My hair has an unfortuante tendancy to stand up at the front, which makes my hair loss look a lot worse. So right now, things don't look great, but I realise this is just cosmetic.

I'll try to keep updating this over the next six months - my trial period. If things are really bad at three months though I might stop.

Gbp2000-

in how much carrier oil/aloe are u mixing papain and brom?
Quantity of TBSs may be too much perhaps you wanna be cautious w everyday use.

and the garlic you juice it and add it how often?

I have never been accurate with vellus mix, just enough to fit in the palm of my hand

The papain and bromelain will be ever three days, after this first week, which I am using as kickstart...

I juice a garlic twice a week at the moment.

gbp, how long are you leaving your vellus fertilizer in for? Overnight or something less? I agree with edony re caution on everyday use of the enzymes and using that much bromelain. I would be inclined to start slower and build rather than trying to kick start it. You may end up with a shed. Check out Librarian who has successfully used bromelain/aloe for a while now without a shed. He is using for a max of 40 minutes. I have slowly switched over to most of his routine from emu/papain and it seems to be working for me so far but I would love to try your vellus topical as well. Thanks for sharing this info.

huli wrote:gbp, how long are you leaving your vellus fertilizer in for? Overnight or something less? I agree with edony re caution on everyday use of the enzymes and using that much bromelain. I would be inclined to start slower and build rather than trying to kick start it. You may end up with a shed. Check out Librarian who has successfully used bromelain/aloe for a while now without a shed. He is using for a max of 40 minutes. I have slowly switched over to most of his routine from emu/papain and it seems to be working for me so far but I would love to try your vellus topical as well. Thanks for sharing this info.

Hi Huli,

I started to use nearly the same stuff as you - papain (1/4 spoon), emu & olive oil (emu oil on its own was too thick) and added recently some hyaluronic acid, three times a week. I had it over the whole night last night and headaches this morning - I will start to have it only for one hour every other day (like The Librarian). Last time I read one of your post on this subject (a few weeks back) you had a shed; since you are mentioning that it start to be working for you does it imply some kind of regrowth?

Regards,

Vade

Vade,
I had what would probably be called a minor shed. The net result was slightly less hair but the hair I have seems thicker, stronger and healthier so it isn't really recognizable. I am impressed further how things have developed in the very short time i have been using Librarian's msm/lugols/vit C topical and am going to try the Vit K topical he is using as well. As for regrowth I can't really say for sure. I have what appears to be a few thick hairs growing in - some independently and some in follicles already producing other hairs. I also have lots of what is either vellus hair or miniaturized hair that has replaced lost terminal hair. I can't really tell which. I am thinking that as long as my follicles are producing hair they are salvageable. Hopefully I can get hair that currently exists to thicken and hair that I have lost replaced by healthy hair as my scalp health improves. Will keep you posted.

Hi guys,

I am not sure if it is the topicals because I have also been using my laser helmet diligently for probably 4 months(?)

The lugols/vitc/msms topical without question reduces my inflammation to nil.


The bromelain topical is also remarkable in that after every use I notice that the white velluis hairs disappear(which I find alarming and I hate) but seem to reemerge as much darker and thicker hair after a few days.

So with that stuff in mind I have to report that my frontal hairline has grown down at least an inch- with hair that is somewhat between a vellus and a full hair. It is really weird in that I can hardly believe my eyes - its hard to discribe . I see it and I want it but I can hardly believe. I have been fighting this thing for so long!

according to the microscope I would say these hairs are approx a 1/3 the thickness of a really health hair and stick straight out strong and black, whereas a vellus hair doesnt even seem to be 1/10th and ly flat on the scalp . Im just waiting to see if these hairs actually grow to a respectable length . If I can get a few inches of hair growth I will be ecstatic. I will have regained a decade of loss!

Keep in mind that I have also dramatically changed my diet toward jdp style eating, lowered my bodyfat percentage to approx 12, detoxed and loaded lugols, have taken a staggering amount of supplements for almost 25 years so I think my body was primed and just needed the right push or tweek.

Everyone got excited about the enzymes after praugues thread but keep in mind that he sound extremely lean and fit. I am convinced that the enzymes have dramatically improved results but I also think low visceral fat is a must! I am shooting for minimuum 8- 10%

librarian, glad to hear someone's having amazing results! Since I'm just about to place a big order for supplements and some topical stuff, I was wondering if I could impose upon you to detail what you've been doing exactly these past 6 months or so. I just started using a laser helmet about a month ago and am currently using 2-3x per week for 15 mins, how long are you using yours?

Please post your internal and topical regimens so some of us can mimic it and see if we can get the same great results.

thelibrarian,

I would also love to see what you are using- specifically topically (the amounts of each, brands, etc.) You said your hairline has come down about an inch....How far up is it, or more specifically what Norwood level would you say you are? I ask because I am trying to see if maybe hairline regrowth is possible at the temples for me. My hairline is still in V formation, so the middle or tip of the V is still where it was originally. Hope that makes sense?

Hey guys, I appreciate everyone's concern over a massive shed -I will restrict the application to one hour period a day for the first week.

The only things I leave in overnight are coconut oil and aloe.

Librarian, your topical sounds very interesting - unfortunately, the last time I used topical vitamin c, it turned my dirty blond hair ginger?

Anyone else had this effect?

Also, just to add, I am including papaya oil in my gunk mix as well.

huli

the same pattern here, some hair got stronger and the fallen grow first tiny and are slowly replaced by newer thicker and stronger hair - ithat's why even the most succesfull ones (fin & dut users included) of us usually report a regrowth some 6-12 after they started the treatment. this is still happening to some degree but most of the hair (more than 90%) have been replaced by new strong ones. The result is amazing.

the librarian

one of the things i observed that after the papain topical i wes shedding tiny hair - i do not think it's the papain dissolving the hair but rather the tiniest hair are the ones with the most calcified/hardened environment and as it gets smoother and softer, it opens and the hair fall out - and it takes weeks till it grows a strong hair

for those who start I would opt rather for one application overnight per week (you can start with two and get to one) - it's not the frequency that matters - if the theory is true and i hope it is - the calcification/cross-linking/hardening should take several days, weeeks?months?to happen - the papain/bromelain is very strong and one application does wonders for the skin ellasticity

I don't feel anything putting the topical on? Is this normal? Only a scar on my head hurts when I apply the mixture.

Thanks, Prague.

One of the other things I can report is that in addition to my scalp skin being more "elastic" it is also softer and smoother. When I started using my microscope I noticed that the scalp in my mpb area was very rough and uneven. Over time with the papain/bromelain topical and a short time with librarian's msm/lugols/vit C topical and his emu oil/magnesium ascorbyl phosphate topical I have noticed the skin becoming much smoother in addition to softer and more supple. I looks way more healthy and the follicles appear much less obstructed (if that makes any sense). While I am only currently seeing small signs of regrowth of what can be called terminal hair I can see a scalp environment that can now support the growth of that hair. Makes me hopeful that if it is working for Prague it will also work for me. But I expect it to be a slow, evolving process as Prague has stated.

I should add that in my opinion Librarian's msm/lugols/vit C topical is very strong for reducing inflammation. I had some inflammation before trying it just over a week ago as a result of my diet sort of falling apart over the Christmas holidays. Within two applications the inflammation was gone, all itching gone and my scalp looked better than ever. In fact it is hard to distinguish the difference between my scalp in mpb areas and other areas. I should also add that his emu oil/map topical is an excellent follow up to that in conditioning the scalp and eliminating any residual inflammation. I am hoping to try his vit K2 topical tonight.

I think diet is extremely important so I am not just trying to rely on topicals and supplements. Like Prague, jdp and others I am trying to eliminate gluten and am experimenting with other restrictions as per the excellent information that jdp keeps bringing to the forum. That and exercise, and maintaining lean body mass, I think is really important if the topical regimen is going to yield the results we're looking for.

Thanks Prague, Librarian, CS, jdp and others for all your help!

huli

huli wrote:Thanks, Prague.

One of the other things I can report is that in addition to my scalp skin being more "elastic" it is also softer and smoother. When I started using my microscope I noticed that the scalp in my mpb area was very rough and uneven. Over time with the papain/bromelain topical and a short time with librarian's msm/lugols/vit C topical and his emu oil/magnesium ascorbyl phosphate topical I have noticed the skin becoming much smoother in addition to softer and more supple. I looks way more healthy and the follicles appear much less obstructed (if that makes any sense). While I am only currently seeing small signs of regrowth of what can be called terminal hair I can see a scalp environment that can now support the growth of that hair. Makes me hopeful that if it is working for Prague it will also work for me. But I expect it to be a slow, evolving process as Prague has stated.

I should add that in my opinion Librarian's msm/lugols/vit C topical is very strong for reducing inflammation. I had some inflammation before trying it just over a week ago as a result of my diet sort of falling apart over the Christmas holidays. Within two applications the inflammation was gone, all itching gone and my scalp looked better than ever. In fact it is hard to distinguish the difference between my scalp in mpb areas and other areas. I should also add that his emu oil/map topical is an excellent follow up to that in conditioning the scalp and eliminating any residual inflammation. I am hoping to try his vit K2 topical tonight.

I think diet is extremely important so I am not just trying to rely on topicals and supplements. Like Prague, jdp and others I am trying to eliminate gluten and am experimenting with other restrictions as per the excellent information that jdp keeps bringing to the forum. That and exercise, and maintaining lean body mass, I think is really important if the topical regimen is going to yield the results we're looking for.

Thanks Prague, Librarian, CS, jdp and others for all your help!

huli

Huli,

Am I reading that correctly to say that you are already using 3 different topicals, and adding a 4th (k2)!? How do you have time to apply so many topicals, and how will you know what is contributing to any regrowth unless you were to only use one for a period of time (6 months maybe) and then add another? It is encouraging to hear positive feedback on topicals, but it becomes confusing to try to start one when someone is using so many.

Thanks

sdguy wrote:librarian, glad to hear someone's having amazing results! Since I'm just about to place a big order for supplements and some topical stuff, I was wondering if I could impose upon you to detail what you've been doing exactly these past 6 months or so. I just started using a laser helmet about a month ago and am currently using 2-3x per week for 15 mins, how long are you using yours?

Please post your internal and topical regimens so some of us can mimic it and see if we can get the same great results.

sdguy,

I just realized that in order for you to "mimic" what librarian is doing, you would have to change your diet completely, get a laser helmet (if you don't have one) and figure out the frequency, output, and duration he is using it, follow his internal supplements to a T, and use a couple different topicals (the same time, duration, frequency, etc.).

jharsh, I have been using some sort of enzyme topical for a while no more than 3 times/week (often only 1 or 2). Recently I have found bromelain and aloe for 40 minutes seems to be most convenient. Librarian is having success with it and I assuming it is pretty much the same as papain. Librarian found msm/lugols/vit C to be really effective to shut down inflammation so I tried that and it really worked. It is not necessarily something i would use all the time but it sure worked for me when I needed it so I am going to try it a little longer. The emu oil and map was another suggestion of Librarians to further deal with inflammation. It is a leave in over night one. I like that too. Recently I has some inflammation issues which I think were started by bad diet over the holidays. I am not sure I would use that all the time. I am really interested in trying the K2 topical to deal with calcification. Take a look at Librarian's thread on K2 and you'll see why it looks compelling.

I agree it may be difficult to know exactly what is working if you are trying a bunch of things. I also think that you can't always use something topical as sometimes you just have to give it a rest. Furthermore there are only so many days in the week, right? So that complicates matters further. However, if you use a microscope to look at your scalp you pretty quickly can get an idea of what is effective for improving the condition of the scalp and what isn't. If it is working by reducing inflammation, making the scalp softer, smoother and more elastic and making it look like the healthy areas of your scalp you figure it must be good and worth continuing. You figure if you can improve the condition of the scalp from the shitty condition it was very apparently in before it is going to do something good. And since others have seem some positive results from some of these ideas you figure why not give it a try. For me it is all going to depend on what I see with the microscope and how healthy my hair feels that will make me decide how to juggle these things. It is all a bit of an experiment so stay tuned.

Huli,

Thanks for the explanation. I have been following the k2 thread and it is really compelling. That is also one of the reasons I am torn which way to go topically. I have papain powder on hand which I stopped because it seemed people were switching to bromelain, and also shedding quite a bit which put me off. Last night I rubbed some papain in my scalp with grape seed oil and left it in overnight. I have no irritation when doing this.

It is my guess/observation that papain seems to be much weaker than bromelain. Does that mean I should/can use it longer and more often? Maybe overnight every other day? What would you recommend having used both?

I just ordered some mag chloride liquid that I plan to use as well, either straight or combined with coconut or grape seed oil overnight. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks

Hey jharsh. Not sure I qualify as an expert on any of this as I am learning as I go along. That said, in my experience anything seems to aggravate my scalp if I leave it on too long or it dries it out. Then again, maybe that is just because it is winter here in Canada and bitterly cold and dry. Also having the heat cranked inside all day really dries things, including your hair and skin. out. I digress...

IME both bromelain and papain are good. I left the papain in overnight EOD and if I didn't use it too often or my mix wasn't too strong I didn't shed. For me there seems to be a threshold at which point my scalp gets aggravated and I start to shed hair that I might not otherwise shed. I think that is different than shedding the weak hairs from calcified follicles like Prague was talking about. I think you want to avoid that and so have to sort of take it slow and experiment. That seems what Librarian is doing with the bromelain. Never more than 40 minutes and so far no shedding but it seems effective. I think I am finding the same.

As for mag oil, I know people rave about it and I use it daily on my legs to get the magnesium into my system transdermally but I find it dries out my hair and scalp and thus leads to shedding for me. Give it a try though as others swear by it. I was really pleased with how emu oil and the magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (according to CS very stable vitamin C that grows hair in studies) left my scalp and hair feeling and looking. I think for me it is good as it keeps things healthy yet not too dried out.

huli,

Are you leaving magnesium chloride on your scalp after it dries?

Either way, you don't have to apply it topically on your hair. It can be applied on your body.


Regarding Iodine/Iodide ... I should mention be careful with a small possibility that it doesn't thin your hair. In theory it might. A weekly application your fine though.

Also, FWIW, Iodine regulates calcium. Also, it's used as a very good anti inflammatory on other ailments.

jdp, what do you know about using lugols and vitamin c. That link you posted to the book on Wonders from the Sea or whatever it was called said not to use vitamin C and sulphur while using iodine. I take C and msm. Wondering what your take on that is.

Thanks.

I can understand that it might be frustrating knowing what remedy is exactly doing what. I agree with Huli that the microscope is really useful. I find it essential. It is also really cheap at approx 35 bucks. I use my topicals in an intuitive way meaning I go by how my scalp feels. If there is any inflammation at all I use the lugols/msm/c mix. BTW, I use the regular ascorbic acid and just a pinch of it- just enough to turn the lugols colorless. I am going to be cycling the iodide and iodine on future applications.

I use emu infrequently- only when I feel my hair is getting dry. I am also going to be implementing JDP's suggestion of cocunut oil as an alternate to deal with the drying issue.

I get up at five to work out and will mix acetyl carnitine and carnosine into an stinging nettle or echinecea or sometimes mistletoe alcohol extract. Again, I choose the extract mostly randomly- wish I could be more help. It takes two minutes to do this . I apply it before my workout and then wash it out in the shower. I know it sounds like alot but it becomes a habit and it really takes no time at all!

I apply the bromelain on the nights before I use my helmet. First I wash my hair with a little lugols which will remove all sebum.I was using clay but I find that the lugols wash and then the bromelain clean the scalp fantastically well...... hey got to get back to the baby but I will continue later this evening for those who are interested.

The Vitamin C converts the Iodine in Lugol's to straight Iodide. You can visually see this as the color goes from brown to clear. Lugol's contains Iodine and Iodide. Iodine is a very good prooxidant ... apoptosis, cancer, etc., whereas Iodide is the antioxidant. Our body uses both forms. With that said, it's said our body can also convert some Iodide to Iodine.

While it's been a long time since I've read that ebook I posted, I'm assuming they are referring to this connection that you don't want to take anything that contains Vitamin C around the time you're taking Lugol's as you'll only be taking Iodide.

Interestingly, adding some Lugol's to the apple cider vinegar, or anything with potassium in general, should help our body utilize potassium even better. Something to that effect.

Also, I no longer take Vitamin C/Pauling Protocol as I believe taking 100 - 150 mg of Iodide taken with a little of the flush niacin works just as well for Lp (a). It's also much cheaper.

Also, I'm on a low oxalate diet. There is some dispute whether or not Vitamin C converts to oxalates but I'm not taking any chances. Oxalates cause all sorts of problems ... inflammation, calcium build-up in your veins, heart tissues, leaky gut, etc.. Oxalates and gluten are my number one and two most important regarding diet.

Sulfur on the other hand I'm not crazy about taking large doses. But that's just based on my experience. Maybe I have low molybdenum or B12. However, people who are sensitive to free glutamic acid are also sensitive to sulfites. People who have a high oxalate burden in their body may also be as well. Normal amounts of sulfur found in food I'm fine, but when taking large amounts or MSM, check for any cuts that won't heal in your mouth. Also, sulfur increases uric acid. Uric acid I believe is greatly responsible for crown hair loss. This would trace back to aldosterone which raising magnesium levels and then focusing on potassium levels should greatly help although diet is the best route IME. Raising potassium may help regarding anemia via copper. One article I read mentioned low potassium unable to use copper ... copper induced anemia. Notice how a lot of MPB sufferers look a little bloated as though they are retaining water ... high sodium. Notice how a lot can look anemic. It's been mentioned several times that after raising Vitamin D levels their skin looks more tanned ... Vitamin D helps regarding anemia. Long-term usage of LLLT people have commented similiar.

Enough ramblings, lol. Topical MSM has it's merits though. One good area is that adding just topical Iodine or Iodide while it will still penetrate your scalp it's been found that when adding DMSO to it, that scars will heal 50% faster ... so MSM should give faster results this way. Long-term LLLT should also help regarding scar/fibrosis via increased superoxide dismutase. Interestingly, I've used LLLT for two years and I'm not able to induce a shed. I could probably leave bromelain on all week, lol. I believe getting rid of this fibrosis on our scalp is very important. There are just many ways of accomplishing this.

hope this helps

Regarding oxalates, I do believe there may be a connection to nanobacteria. There may also be a connection regarding oxalates and Iodine use. People who are on a low oxalate diet and those who supplement with "large" doses of Iodine/Iodide seem to report similiar results.

Jdp,
as far as I am concerned you can "ramble" forever! I am interested in everything that you have got to contribute. I wish CS would "ramble" more! haha