Mechanical stimulation of skin increase androgen sensitivy

Hic-5 is a coactivator of Androgen receptors in hair

Inui S wrote:Androgen site-specifically affects human hair growth after puberty through androgen receptors in the dermal papilla, which transactivate target genes acting in conjunction with co-activators. To examine the regulation of androgen sensitivity in hair follicles, we focused on androgen receptor co-activator Hic-5/ARA55. Its interaction with transfected androgen receptor in beard dermal papilla cells was confirmed with mammalian two-hybrid assays. The semiquantitative reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction showed that Hic-5/ARA55 mRNA expression was high in dermal papilla cells from the beard and bald frontal scalp but low in cells from the occipital scalp. To determine whether Hic-5/ARA55 mRNA level correlates with its endogenous activity, we studied the effect of dominant negative Hic-5/ARA55 on transfected androgen receptor transactivation induced by R1881 using mouse mammary tumor virus-luciferase assays. We found that it suppressed the transactivation by 64.5 and 71.4% in dermal papilla cells from the beard and bald frontal scalp, respectively, whereas it showed no significant effect in cells from the occipital scalp. Our findings suggest that Hic-5/ARA55 is a molecular regulator for androgen sensitivity in human hair follicles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17508020

Telez-Segura R wrote:

CONTEXT:

Androgenetic alopecia (AGA) is a frequent disorder characterized by progressive hair miniaturization in a very similar pattern among all affected men. The pathogenesis is related to androgen-inducible overexpression of transforming growth factor β-1 from balding dermal papilla cells, which is involved in epithelial inhibition and perifollicular fibrosis. Recent research shows that hair follicle androgen sensitivity is regulated by Hic-5, an androgen receptor co-activator which may be activated by the mechanical stimulation. Moreover, the dermis of scalp susceptible to be affected by AGA is firmly bounded to the galea aponeurotica, so the physical force exerted by the occipitofrontalis muscle is transmitted to the scalp skin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26622151

The second study mentions force exerted by occiptofrontalis. However, the galea is not only bound to this muscle. It have connection all the way down to the soles of the feet through fascia, connective tissue.

Tom Myers is the creator of Anatomy Trains, which have split the muscles into bundles depending on connectivity to each other.
In questions about Plantar fascitis(Which we can apply to the galea, because it's the same tissue, just different end of the body) he replied that other areas affect chronic plantar fascitis.

Tom Myers wrote:Look elsewhere on the Superficial Back Line. Especially in chronic cases, the result is plantar fasciitis but the cause is in the Achilles complex, the hamstrings, a pelvic torque, or even up at the sub-occipitals. Strange but true, I have solved a lot of plantar fasciitis from the neck.

So I think it is safe to say, that at least SOME mechanical stretching of the Galea(meaning extra androgen sensitivity) is due to muscle tightness from the back of spine and legs.

finasteride inhibits 5-AR, and alot of users report muscle weakness and fatigue. Is it farfetched to suggest it is lessend mechanical pull from tired muscles that is lessening Hic-5 expression?

This also means that posture, from toes to crown can exert variable mechanical forces on the galea, depending on how you stand and which muscles you use. (Meaning overuse/tightness of: Calf muscles, Hamstrings, erector spinae and neck muscles)
I myself have several muscle knots in my calf, tight hamstring, tight lower back and tight neck muscles).
My father is bald, 60 and have severe lower back pain, also anterior pelvic tilt->tight hamstrings and back.


So, a new factor in lessening hair loss is simply to aid muscle relaxation, improving posture and stressawareness(thightens muscles).

 Here is a list of muscle relaxants I searched a while back

Nigella Stevia

Scutellaria baicalensis

Ginkgo biloba L http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3174791

VALERIAN

PASSION FLOWER

CHAMOMILE

MAGNESIUM

EPSOM SALT BATHS

MEDITATION

DMSO

http://selfhealbalm.com/natural-muscle-relaxer-top-7-list/

Progesterone

" Recent research shows that hair follicle androgen sensitivity is regulated by Hic-5, an androgen receptor co-activator which may be activated by the mechanical stimulation "

It seems important to note that the focus of the article is to remotely theorize that the galea connection under the skin might be effecting hairloss. This mechanical stimulation would be something like a constant stretching or maybe some occasional lateral shifting movement. They referred to other research to reference the claim, not that a shifty galea is proven to promote hairloss.

The idea that overall muscle relaxation is a good idea, is fine. There is a big difference in skin stimulation methods. Hairy skin is subjected to all kinds of normal stimulation like brushing, being sat/slept on, shaved, and these are probably more intense than a shifty galea.

My point is that even if the galea was the cause, a tight galea may best be aided by relaxation exercises or massage. To think that there is a way to immobilize the galea or never touch the skin seems impractical. I would be more interested in learning precisely what kinds of stimulation are being claimed to promote hairloss. Even with DT, we are careful to not friction the skin.

You're right, I wasn't able to directly find more direct qoute about it and androgen receptors. But Hic-5 is translocated to the nucleus in other cells, fibroblasts, myofibroblasts etc following mechanical stress.

The skin of the scalp is bound to the galea, so forces of galea pull/stretch is also transmitted to the skin.

Article 2 wrote: Moreover, the dermis of scalp susceptible to be affected by AGA is firmly bounded to the galea aponeurotica, so the physical force exerted by the occipitofrontalis muscle is transmitted to the scalp skin.

I think I didn't explain myself right:
I don't want to immpbilize the galea, I'm not against DT(I do it with a baseball) but I think unconcious tension in the back muscles might exert an unneccesary pulling force on the galea, and it would be more beneficial to lessen that. You could say that by relaxing the pulling forces, you are actually mobilizing it.

These are the good days when a headline that looks like it is against DT ends up being compatible with massage.

I now usually lie down and let the weight of my head assist when I DT-CPR press the back of my head. I also press into the back of my neck, it feels relaxing and maybe relaxes the galea connections too.

In Hindsight, I can see how "stimulation" turns the message. 

you could try progresse muscle relaxation (PMR)

A comparison of EMG feedback and progressive muscle relaxation training in anxiety neurosis.
Canter A, Kondo CY, Knott JR.
Abstract
Two similar groups of adult psychiatric patients carrying the diagnosis of anxiety neurosis were compared in their response to different methods of training in deep muscle relaxation. One group received EMG feedback and the other a modification of the Jacobson Progressive Relaxation method. The frontalis muscle was chosen as the target for feedback training and for the measurement of tension reduction in both groups, for the reason that this muscle has been shown to reflect the general muscle tension level in anxious patients. Training was carried out under controlled laboratory conditions, and objective muscle tension levels were obtained. Overall changes in the status of the anxiety symptoms, as determined by global ratings from patients and from primary therapists, were also compared in the two groups at the end of training. The results of the study indicated that both EMG feedback and the progressive muscle relaxation training produced significant reductions in frontalis tension levels. However, EMG feedback was found to be generally superior in producing larger reductions in muscle activity, with a concomitant relief in anxiety symptoms, for a greater number of the patients.

Treatment of Male Pattern Baldness with Botulinum Toxin: A Pilot Study

...
In this ethically approved study, 50 male subjects aged between 19 and 57 years with Norwood/Hamilton ratings of II to IV participated.2 The study was 60 weeks in duration, with 12 weeks of run-in followed by two treatment cycles of 24 weeks each. Subjects were injected with 150 units of Botox (5 units per 0.1 ml saline) into the muscles surrounding the scalp, including frontalis, temporalis, periauricular, and occipitalis muscles in equally divided doses over 30 injection sites. The primary outcome measure was a change in hair count in a fixed 2-cm area using a method described by Canfield.3 Secondary outcome measures included hair loss, measured by having subjects collect loose hair from their pillow with a sticky lint roller, and subjective efficacy using a validated questionnaire. Statistical analysis entailed paired t tests of group means.Forty subjects completed the study, and no adverse effects were reported. The treatment response rate was 75 percent. Mean hair counts for the entire group showed a statistically significant (p < 0.0001) increase of 18 percent between baseline and week 48 (Table 1), similar to the results reported with Propecia (Merck, Whitehouse Station, N.J.)

finasteride inhibits 5-AR, and alot of users report muscle weakness and fatigue. Is it farfetched to suggest it is lessend mechanical pull from tired muscles that is lessening Hic-5 expression?

I'm unconvinced. Not all who take finasteride experience any muscle weakness or fatigue whatsoever. I am an example of this. I am stronger, and have more energy than ever since beginning finasteride. I attribute the strength to a) increased testosterone due to fin usage and b) me working out and improving each time at the gym. Especially the first 3 months of fin usage I felt like I was in godmode. I could barely keep my boners down and they'd happen spontaneously at just looking at a girl. As for the gym, I could do endless reps and sets and I felt like there was no ending to my energy. Sadly this did only last 3 months but, now that I am a year and a half in on the drug, I don't think I'm any worse than before. In fact I still feel like I'm better than before in the energy department but I'm not the workout fiend I temporarily became during the first stages of my usage of the drug.

My results are not typical. But I did regrow hair, and this was without the quoted symptoms. It has to be more complicated than just muscle fatigue and weakness.

Furthermore, the energy levels I'm going to assume come from either the inflammation reduction allowing my body to use less resources with that(I had red itchy skin all over my scalp before fin) or just the stress relief of witnessing my hair regrow.

Wow SonOfOdin, I'm a bit envious of your response to fin. Do you have a history of being overweight/hairy(or any sign of hormonal imbalance). Maybe the fatigue symptoms is caused by Aromatase action, which overweight people(..or or.. metabolic syndrome da da da duhh) might have more of it.
Maybe you regulary eat food that might have aromatase inhibitory action?

I'm still not giving up on those muscles though.

MM Hamdi wrote:Our results show that treating the fibre bundles with physiological concentrations of DHT increases both twitch and tetanic contractions in fast twitch fibres. However, it decreases them in slow twitch fibres. These changes in force are accompanied by an increase in the phosphorylation of MAPK/ERK1/2 in both fibre types and that of regulatory myosin light chains in fast twitch fibres.
...
In contrast, testosterone had no effect on force and increased the phosphorylation of ERK1/2 in slow twitch fibres only

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2825614/
DHT is rasing fast twitch force 33% and decreasing slow twitch force 25%(fig 1)
Btw, fast twitch can exert greater force for short periods compared to slow. But can DHT overactivaite them?
The study used physiolgical DHT concentrations. 

Tetanic contraction is sustained muscle contraction. DHT increase fast twitch tetanic contraction(So maybe Lactic acid build up too, because mainly anaeorbic metabolism).
By decreasing DHT and shifting to slow twitch, higher aerobic metabolism is achieved (which by raising CO2 is dilating bloodvessels and increasing blood flow). In line of Ray Peat thinking.

So you feeling more energy could be the slow/fast type "switch" so you now rely more on aerobic, which is sustainable for long periods =less tired.

I haven't been able to find ratios of fast/slow on m frontalis / occiptalis though. The muscles along the superfiscial back line are supposed to be slow twitch mainly, to support posture.

Yeah something was really out of whack with me. Before finasteride I could grow a full beard in about three days and my legs have always been extremely hairy. I also had a very skinny fat type physique that refused to put on muscle and my sex drive was very low. To put things into perspective a lot of times I'd accidentally go on no fap for weeks to months at a time.

Now... perhaps there might have been a better way in balancing my hormones than killing off my DHT. Or, perhaps I had so high of DHT that even inhibiting a large amount still provides me with enough to function. I wish I knew, and I wish I had the funds to of been taking blood tests to better create a hypothesis over this.

My diet does contain a pound of mixed veggies a day and plenty of fats and protein. This may help, or maybe not. I also supplement with zinc.

What you say on the fast twitch muscles is interesting. I have heard anecdotal reports on a bodybuilding forum I frequent that some people felt their PR's(personal records) went down but their ability to put on mass seemed to increase. So, what that means is when they go for the heaviest weight they can do for only one rep, they feel less strong, and what this is, is primarily fast twitch.

But, all I am saying too, is also anecdotal so by no means do I suggest giving up on your theory but I like to play devil's advocate at times to keep discussion rolling and help develop things further.

SonofOdin wrote:Yeah something was really out of whack with me. Before finasteride I could grow a full beard in about three days and my legs have always been extremely hairy. I also had a very skinny fat type physique that refused to put on muscle and my sex drive was very low. To put things into perspective a lot of times I'd accidentally go on no fap for weeks to months at a time.

Now... perhaps there might have been a better way in balancing my hormones than killing off my DHT. Or, perhaps I had so high of DHT that even inhibiting a large amount still provides me with enough to function. I wish I knew, and I wish I had the funds to of been taking blood tests to better create a hypothesis over this.

My diet does contain a pound of mixed veggies a day and plenty of fats and protein. This may help, or maybe not. I also supplement with zinc.

What you say on the fast twitch muscles is interesting. I have heard anecdotal reports on a bodybuilding forum I frequent that some people felt their PR's(personal records) went down but their ability to put on mass seemed to increase. So, what that means is when they go for the heaviest weight they can do for only one rep, they feel less strong, and what this is, is primarily fast twitch.

But, all I am saying too, is also anecdotal so by no means do I suggest giving up on your theory but I like to play devil's advocate at times to keep discussion rolling and help develop things further.

That's interesting Odin, I have that same physique you describe, it seems hard for me to put on muscle, but my libido was always fine (although extremely high now in particular due to nofap etc).

Maybe I'll start taking my Theaflavin supplements again.

I wonder, it's been about 6 months since I stopped taking them (I only took them for maybe a week), are they still ok?  I have the Life Extension brand so I'm sure they are of good quality, but do things like that go bad?

alphadelta wrote:you could try progresse muscle relaxation (PMR)

A comparison of EMG feedback and progressive muscle relaxation training in anxiety neurosis.
Canter A, Kondo CY, Knott JR.
Abstract
Two similar groups of adult psychiatric patients carrying the diagnosis of anxiety neurosis were compared in their response to different methods of training in deep muscle relaxation. One group received EMG feedback and the other a modification of the Jacobson Progressive Relaxation method. The frontalis muscle was chosen as the target for feedback training and for the measurement of tension reduction in both groups, for the reason that this muscle has been shown to reflect the general muscle tension level in anxious patients. Training was carried out under controlled laboratory conditions, and objective muscle tension levels were obtained. Overall changes in the status of the anxiety symptoms, as determined by global ratings from patients and from primary therapists, were also compared in the two groups at the end of training. The results of the study indicated that both EMG feedback and the progressive muscle relaxation training produced significant reductions in frontalis tension levels. However, EMG feedback was found to be generally superior in producing larger reductions in muscle activity, with a concomitant relief in anxiety symptoms, for a greater number of the patients.

Cool, EMG never crossed my mind, not something you think you can get.
http://www.advancertechnologies.com/p/myoware.html
~40 usd, I'm gonna read more on it and purchase.

By the way, I just kinda forgot what my point was when I started the thread. But I was thinking the "swelling" lump underneath the skin stretched the skin and that would be the mechanical stimulation mentioned in the article. So therfore in line with DT.