NADH usage for anti-aging and hair loss

It's been a while since I've heard about this, but I was quite intrigued, seems like powerful stuff.

I do have a few concerns though. I've read that its the NADH to NAD ratio that is important. Haven't really read anything detailed with regards to this. Anything that talks about ratio is quite worrisome since it seems it could have the opposite effect if we don't know how much we are supposed to take.

A lot of the praise seems to be coming from the CFS community. I wonder what affects it would have for hair loss and skin health.

Another thing I heard was that CoEnzyme Q10 supplementation actually decreased NADH reserves, or something like that, which gave me the impression that taking CoQ10 is not a good idea.

Would appreciate any clarifications.

Thanks

Be aware that supplemental niacin in any form does not agree with some people.  I'm one.  Any type of niacin, even this so called "active" form of it (NADH) affects me negatively.   I feel horrible after just a very short time on it, at a remarkably low dose.  I don't have the science of it at my finger tips, but processing niacin in the body uses up methyl groups (is a "methyl stealer").   Supposedly NADH is an active form and thus bypasses the need for processing or stealing methyl groups, but even it doesn't agree with me.

CoQ10, on the other hand, is a big methyl donor.  I LOVE CoQ10.  But I never noticed any effect to it until I bumped up my dosage to about 600mg/day.   Then I was like "Oh, *this* is what people have been talking about CoQ10."  

If you are an "overmethylator" you might benefit from niacin/NADH.   People with CFS who are experimenting with kickstarting the methylation cycle will frequently use it if they get jittery or have any other unpleasant symptoms related to increasing methylation.   Taking niacin will bring methylation to a screeching halt pretty quickly.  I frequent a CFS forum and that's mostly what I hear about niacin.

But if you are an undermethylator (apparently I am), watch out for niacin in any form (NADH/niacin/niacinamide, etc.).  It's not the godsend the hype will lead you to believe.  I read far more on blogs and on blogs that are actually advertisements about the benefits of niacin than I've ever read actual people on forums who have had big success with it.   I don't know that I've ever read a first-hand anecdote by someone on a forum that I trust (that is, a regular user) that's ever had a big success with niacin or any of its currently available forms.

There is another form of it, NAD (one molecule upstream from NADH), that might be more beneficial, but that supplement got pulled off the shelves not too long ago.  IIRC a pharmaceutical company is now experimenting with it and intends to try to patent it the way Merck patented methylfolate.   I never had a chance to try NAD but did hear a few good first-hand anecdotes about that.

As far as NADH/niacin's effect on hair:  I don't know.  I just know it makes me feel like shit.  So I don't use it.  Some people may react differently.  But if they're out there I don't know where to find them.

whodathunkit wrote:

CoQ10, on the other hand, is a big methyl donor.  I LOVE CoQ10.  But I never noticed any effect to it until I bumped up my dosage to about 600mg/day.   Then I was like "Oh, *this* is what people have been talking about CoQ10."  
.

Hi, Whodathunkit, what is an "undermethylator" and what were the amazing effects you got of CoQ10 ?

Thanks

I'd like to know what symptoms you experienced while on niacinamide. I was on 1g/day plus more from high doses of liver powder and I'm wondering if that's what caused some of the strange symptoms I received.

I read one person on this forum liken it to xanax. I didn't feel anything like that at all. I don't know what's meant to be so good about it.

The only thing I noticed about it was a feeling of Time distortion, i.e. when taken at night I noticed it would make a 7 hour sleep feel like 20 mins.

Just for the record, I noticed Co-Codamol has the opposite effect, it made a sleep of about 4 hours seem like an 8 hour sleep.

But maybe that was just me.

I think I may have confused NAD and NADH. So from these two it is better to take NAD supplements than.

Are there any dosages we need to be concerned, do we need to be worried about the ratio?

Elmo: here's a couple good links to good explanations of the methylation process.

http://www.drkendalstewart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Methylation-Overview-for-Professionals-10.11.pdf

http://nancymullanmd.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Interview-MTHFR+-Methyl-Groups-and-Methylation.pdf

Briefly, methylation occurs in nearly every cell in our bodies and is necessary for things to work properly.  Energy production, DNA repair, etc., all kinds of crucial processes depend upon a well-functioning methylation cycle.  

The methylation cycle is "fed" by a ready availablity of methyl groups.  As noted in one of the links above, methyl groups are groups of carbon and hydrogen atoms.   Some supplements such as methylcobalamin, methylfolate, CoQ10, etc., promote the formation of methyl groups or are outright "methyl donors":  they donate a missing molecule to a potential methyl group, allowing it to function properly and do its job.

Some substances such as niacin and alcohol "steal" methyl groups away from bodily processes so they can themselves be processed.  One reason you feel so crappy after drinking is because your methyl groups have been ravaged.

Some people don't produce enough methyl groups to keep themselves healthy.   These are undermethylators.   They're typically low energy, fatigued, etc.  Sometimes genetic mutations can cause someone to not produce methyl groups correctly, which is why they under-methylate.  Sometimes (like me) they were innately healthy at one point in their lives but abused their bodies to the point where they don't do so well any more.

People who over methylate produce too many methylgroups.  Some symtpoms of overmethylation can be anxiety, jitteriness, etc.  For these people, taking niacin or drinking alcohol can help them feel better, because the excess methyl groups are being used up by the outside substances and not entering into the bodily processes.  This is also why people who are "kick starting" methylation cycle using supplements will use niacin to "quench" the symtpoms of overmethylation.  Sometimes they're probably not really overmethylating as much as they're suddently producting more methyl groups than they're used to, which in turn gives them symptoms.  Detox is also a component...kick starting methylation frequently precipitates a detox reaction as garbage that has been sitting in cells for a long time is suddenly stirred up.  As people's bodies acclimate to the higher level of functioning and get cleaned up, the symtpoms of over-methylation will start alleviating without having to resort to niacin or some other methylation "quencher".

The symptoms presented by me of over- and under-methylation are not comprehensive.  Suggest you do more research if you're interested.

This is a crude explanation and maybe somewhat off the mark, but AFAIK right now it's fairly accurate.  Hopefully someone else with more knowledge will chime in if I've messed it all up.

Anyway, the main effect of CoQ10 for me was an overall boost in energy without being strung out.   It was very pleasant but not like getting a buzz or anything.  Seems to help with stamina and endurance.   But again, I never noticed anything from CoQ10 until I bumped up the dosage to 600mg/day.  That's kind of expensive but I'm hanging with it for a while because it is doing me some good.  In addition to general energy, CoQ10 is really good for your gums and general oral health.  That's why I bumped up the dosage in the first place.  And the older you get, the more you need to supplement.  CoQ10 is one of those things the body can produce abundantly in young people but as we age we lose that ability so must supplement.

MikeGore:  if you can get your hands on any NAD, *PLEASE* tell me where.  I'd like to try it.  All I can find is NADH.  And as I said, I think one of the Big Pharma companies is trying to do something with NAD which is why it's no longer available as supplement.  I know people used to get it on iherb, but it's not there any more.  You can't buy it anywhere I can find on the 'net.

Ratios are supposed to be important with B vitamins but I just go by how stuff makes me feel.  I don't seem to need any niacin besides what I get from my food (milk and milk products, occasional Ezekial bread, etc.), but I do need lots extra of methylfolate (active B9), some extra P5P (active B6), lots of the active B12's (methyl and adenosylcobalamin, and some extra riboflavin 5 phosphate (active B2).   I also take extra biotin for my hair and skin, and B5 for the same reason.  Basically everything except niacin in whatever form.

Odin:  any form of niacin saps my energy.  It makes me really, really cranky.  It gives me headaches.  I feel like I have a hangover although without the rampant thirst and banging quality of the headaches.  Niacin headache is more just a low-level annoyance.

Thanks for that whodathunkit. That was very informative.

It seems you are right, they have discontinued the NAD supplements. I know Now Foods had it, but now its gone.

It's quite annoying how they ban something in order for the big pharma to sell it at a higher price and also probably with synthetic chemicals in it. Do they think we will thank them when they provide this to us? The left hand bans and the right hand provides; these companies are despicable.

This has both inositol hexanicotinate and NAD

CausticSymmetry wrote:This has both inositol hexanicotinate and NAD

The inosital hexanicotinate may cause problems for some, too. It does for me. Even the most "benign" forms of niacin supplementation give me some kind of reaction.

To really adjudge the benefits of NAD I personally would have to take it by itself.

Can someone please clarify what this guy is saying here? https://youtu.be/JN-yhGrkvYA?t=2m14s

It kinda sounds like its not a good thing to take CoQ10 since it depletes NADH pools.

I don't watch video links because I frequently can't understand them because of my hearing impairment, but I will say (again) that CoQ10 has done me nothing but good. Even when I was taking lower doses and didn't get a reaction from it, it wasn't bad. It was just more of the same.

Judging from the universal acceptance of CoQ10 as beneficial by even mainstream physicians, I'd say that any issue about NADH depletion is probably an outlier-type concern (that is, only affects a small, specific set of people).

My advice is to try both substances and see what they do for you. You can try them both separately for a while, and try them together. I can pretty much guarantee you're not going to incur any harm by short trials of a couple weeks of either NADH or CoQ10.

I have read that niacinamide overdose can cause liver damage. Is this true?

Currently I am taking a good multivitamin ( LEF Two Tablets Per Day) and the CoEnzymated B3 from Source Naturals. Is it too much?

Or perhaps I've confused niacinamide with nicotinamide. Either way they are both types of Vitamin B3 and perhaps might still contribute to an overdose and liver damage.

MikeGore wrote:I have read that niacinamide overdose can cause liver damage. Is this true?

Currently I am taking a good multivitamin ( LEF Two Tablets Per Day) and the CoEnzymated B3 from Source Naturals. Is it too much?

Or perhaps I've confused niacinamide with nicotinamide. Either way they are both types of Vitamin B3 and perhaps might still contribute to an overdose and liver damage.

Not true.

Regular niacin taken at 3 gram dosages can potentially elevate liver enzymes. The flush-free form does not do this at all.

The key is the dose for the regular niacin.

So if niacin makes me feel nice and relaxed (apart from the horrid flushing) does that mean I'm an overmethylator? It says that if you're an overmethylator you don't do well on SSRIs, but lexapro really helped my social anxiety. I seem to have a lot of symptoms of both. I don't feel good or bad when I have b6, folate or b12.

Thanks for clarifying that CS :-)