liposoluble vitamin C fail?

Can some experts in the making of liposomal vitamin C please let me know if they think I'm doing this wrong?

I used a Kendall HB23 ultrasonic cleaner, with two ultrasonic transducers for a total of 120W and an integrated 100W heater, and the soy lecithin is clearly clumping together, despite me stirring every 15 minutes or so with a sunbeam kitchen robot...

I mixed in with a blender 9 cups of reverse osmosis water, 18 tbsp of soy lecithin granules, 6 tbsp of calcium ascorbate and started the ultrasonic cleaner.

Here's what it was looking like in the middle of the process... Stuff that I sprayed up on the walls by stirring too fast with the robot is clearly getting burnt by the heater...



Here's what it looks like after I complete a couple of 100 minutes rounds at ~40 degrees C, pour half of it in a blender and then into a jar after blending it... The stuff is floating on top, under a layer of foam... I feel like it happened because of the final blending:



Here's the result right after another 100 minutes at ~40 degrees C, making sure to stir towards the end but using no final blending... as time goes by, I have the impression it is gonna be separating...



and here's after just one hour sitting in my fridge... you can see it's clearly starting to separate... (please don't mind the residual white label on the exterior of the jar)



this looks like a fail to me... I was expecting something as smooth as the LivOn Lipospheric vitamin C... maybe I should get liquid soy lecithin instead of the one that comes in form of granules?

Hey Magic_Gro, you basically cooked your liposomes. All of mine look white or off-white, smooth and taste neutral, I never stir only hand mix the initial batches separately. Dump 'em and start from scratch.

Make sure the heater is turned off. The reason I like the Kendall HB23 is due to the temp readout, try not to go above 100F or 38C to avoid damaging the liposome.

BTW, are you certain you maintained 40C? Because only after 3 minutes does the agitation increase the temp enough for me, I'll often take a break for ten minute and restart the procedure. I never have any burning on the stainless steel whatsoever.

Also I would ditch the calcium ascorbate. I personally wouldn't want calcium buffering ascorbate, or direct entrance into my bloodstream. Make sure everything is fairly sterile as everything goes into that blood stream. Glass containers are a great idea.

Just amended for the third time. Hope this helps.

I wasn't wondering about the color, since my soy lecithin granules are yellow to start with... I was mostly wondering about the consistency and whether they dissociate from water...

Well at a certain point the temperature reader went on "HI" and I could no longer tune the temperature up or down and I could no longer switch the heather off... only after i shut everything off and unplugged for ten minutes, I could use the thermostat again...

Here's a pic of my soy lecithin granules.

I have used by both VitaminShoppe and Swansonvitamins granulated lecithin to great success. Definitely overcooked them. After three minutes I easily enter into 40C and beyond territory from a room temp baseline of 20C. You might even need a new front panel replacement under warranty, which is a simple fix. Perhaps your outlet isn't properly grounded. Just a few suggestions off the top of my head.

magic, use the recipe at this link

http://www.pdazzler.com/archives/62

If you follow it, it works like a charm every time.  You can leave out the baking soda if teasing the solution through the acid/base reaction is too much of a PITA.  The baking soda is in there for balance because it's a recipe for cancer patients so they have to be more careful about acidifying their systems more than healthy people do.

IMO the key to a good liposomal C solutions is to make sure your granules (or whatever lecithin you use, I find I'm liking liquid sunflower lecithin for liposomal C these days) are COMPLETELY dissolved in water before you put the vitamin C in there. Vitamin C should also be completely dissolved in water.

Also make sure you get a high-quality vitamin C powder.   I found that the NOW foods vitamin C I originally got would not dissolve completely at the concentrations I wanted.  

The only reason I ever use a blender is to mix the vitamin C with baking soda.  If I don't use baking soda I skip the blender and go straight to the jewelry cleaner.   The only ruined batch I ever had was when I decided to experiment with the blender and overprocessed my mixture because the blender motor heated it up.

Also, if I use the blender it's on low ONLY, and for a very short period of time so the motor doesn't heat up.

But the bottom line is you don't need the blender for a smooth solution.  For a smooth solution put your granules in water over night and shake it vigorously.

Good luck!

It's looks similar to the very first pizza made by me, a hot mess. If first you don't succeed....

4039 wrote:I have used by both VitaminShoppe and Swansonvitamins granulated lecithin to great success. Definitely overcooked them. After three minutes I easily enter into 40C and beyond territory from a room temp baseline of 20C. You might even need a new front panel replacement under warranty, which is a simple fix. Perhaps your outlet isn't properly grounded. Just a few suggestions off the top of my head.

do you mean you don't use the heater at all and the temperature raises just because of the ultrasonic transducer and you manually stop it to cool off a bit when you see it raising past 40 celsius?

btw, mine came without instructions, can you please scan yours?

there's a sticker on it that says "please make sure the heating pipe full of water before using heating function"... what the hell do they mean by heating pipe???

thank you!

Yes, in other words, the ultrasonic cavitation itself will raise the temperature well above 100F/38C after a few minutes. The heater function is completely unnecessary for anything other than cleaning jewelry. Liposomes are very sensitive to heat as are most vitamins, minerals and other supplements.

Also, I personally don't like the idea of pre-mixing the ingredients in a blender with the chance for any cross-contamination. I truly try to make the process as sterile as possible without going completely overboard. Handing mixing via shaking works just as well. The quality of my liposomes (several months later) is the ultimate proof, as very little if any separation occurs. Good luck dude.

then I guess the heater in my unit is not working...   

any chance you have a manual? and what do you think of that sticker mentioning the "water pipe" ???

thanks!

I'd say your heater is working too well, and should never be engaged. Next time cavatate the liposomes for three minutes, wait a half hour, another three minutes and you're probably good to go. I highly recommend sodium ascorbate. Don't know anything about the water pipe part. Sorry.

Once you see a good liposomal batch, you're going to immediately know the difference. As well, the quality of my liposomes definitely increased after purchasing a higher powered ultrasonic cleaner, that much I can tell you.

The other advantage to putting your lecithin/water mixture in the fridge overnight and making sure it's completely smooth before putting it in the jewelry cleaner with your vitamin C/water mixture is that it is COLD when you starting working with it.  

Starting with cold mixtures allows you to be able to run it through the ultrasound cycles many more times before it heats, thus presumably making better liposomes.  I've read the more ultrasound you can give it without heating up the better quality liposomes you get.  

I always start with cold lecithin/water and cold vitamin C/water mixtures.  I mix both the day before (in separate jars) and leave them in the fridge overnight until I'm ready to actually ready to mix them and make the batch.

Starting cold I can run it in the jewelry cleaner for a half hour before  it heats to body temp (where I can't notice a temp change when I stick my finger in it).   Heating to body temp is fine, and in fact I've seen instructions that some people heat their water to around 110F when having trouble dissolving the C, although I don't recommend or do that.  If you have good quality vitamin C with no fillers you shouldn't need to do that.  Larger point being that a little above room temp for a little while is not going to damage either the vitamin C or the lecithin mixture.  My batches always turn out looking like soy milk in consistency, with a light yellow color, and never separate.

4039 is right, don't ever use the heater no matter what.  You don't need it.

Nice thread.

How it would work to put some other AOs in the mix, as ALA, glutathione, as well as minerals - magnisium, potassium, zinc? I find for one by one, it was already made - but putting more things to a combo sounds like more fun, but is it?

Tnx.

I was thinking of adding L-lysine and D-methionine. Not sure if any of them are already liposoluble though...   

The second batch was slightly better... the third one is the best so far, but I got a lot of froth when I mixed the {vitamin C + water} solution with the {soy lecithin granules + water} solution with a blender before throwing the mix into the ultrasonic cleaner. Maybe that was a mistake...

What scares me about hand-shaking my mix in a jar, is that the lid might not be perfectly tight and leak proof... that's why I have used the blender...

Do you guys get froth?

I removed the froth from the top with a ladle, *before* putting the mix into the ultrasonic cleaner... You can see it next to the final product... The final product looks much better than in the previous two batches, but I am afraid the froth might have had most of the lipids and I hence got a very low encapsulation yield. But there's no way to check... I would have never imagined from the videos on youtube that doing this stuff right would be hard and would take this much time... nobody tells you about the culprits, well until I asked here, that is ;-)

magic, get Ball canning jars. They do not leak.  I use a quart canning jar for pre-mixing the lecithin.

Leave lecithin/water to soak in the fridge at least 8 hours, preferably more.  Shake it several times before trying to mix it with anything else.  I think you're in a hurry to do this, but all you're doing by trying to hurry is wasting ingredients.   Try to slow down a little, okay?  

I can tell by looking at your picture that your lecithin is not fully dissolved.  It looks better than the first but still not there yet.

My finished product does not froth.  It does not separate.   It literally has the smooth consistency of soy milk.  The only time I ever get froth is when I'm still dissolving my lecithin.   If you're getting a lot of froth your lecithin is not dissolved and/or your solution is not completely blended into liposomes (if you've already run it through the jewelry cleaner).

Did you look a the recipe at the link I posted?  Not kidding when I say if you follow that recipe it will work.  But until you are able to get a good batch together you can't impose what you think on the recipe (proportions, technique, other ingredients to add, etc.). You have to learn what you're doing first before free-wheeling off.

magic_grow:

I too just started making liposomal C about 2 weeks ago.  I have made two batches and both have come out great.  Below is the video I followed to make my liposomal C.

whodathunkit wrote:Leave lecithin/water to soak in the fridge at least 8 hours, preferably more.  Shake it several times before trying to mix it with anything else.  I think you're in a hurry to do this, but all you're doing by trying to hurry is wasting ingredients.   Try to slow down a little, okay?

I had put 18 tablespoons of soy lecithin granules in 6 cups of water and left them sitting there all day at room temperature, from 10am to 11pm, then they still weren't dissolved, so I threw them into the blender and they became a smooth pale yellow solution that looked promising, so I threw them in the fridge. The next night at 9pm, so 23 hours later, I put 6 tablespoons of vitamin C in 3 cups of water and mixed them with the blender. Then I took the soy lecithin solution out of the fridge and mixed it up with the vitamin C solution, but the mix got frothy. And then I threw everything into the ultrasonic cleaner...

I was wondering: should I have used the blender before and left the stuff sitting at room temperature all day when already blended and only then thrown it in the fridge?

now I go and watch that video once again... and re-read that page carefully...

by the way, this last batch eventually separated and stratified again by the time I checked it out again this morning... :'(

thanks!

Dude you are trying to reinvent the wheel. Distilled water is theoretically pure H20, meaning (given a chance) it dissolves most substances. Two separate sterile glass containers, with these ratios: 8oz distilled water with 1tbl of sodium ascorbate shaken for a minute, 8oz of distilled water with 3tbl of granulated lecithin shaken for a minute (repeat as necessary.) Place both into a sterilized ultrasonic cleaner and begin cavitation, make sure not to elevate temperature past 100F. I never stir or use a mixer. It doesn't really take much time to make quality liposomal C vs. something like CoQ10.

I'd be really irresponsible not to repeat the importance of relative sterility, not cleanroom grade, but still.

My mixture comes out slightly off-white, totally smooth and tests with a relatively neutral pH. There isn't even a hint of taste to resemble sodium ascorbate and the mixture never separates. Only my CoQ10 liposomes will slightly separate over time, perhaps 5% or so.

BTW, I use these 18oz Aquasana glass jars.
http://www.aquasana.com/product_detail.php?product_id=43

4039 wrote:Distilled water is theoretically pure H20, meaning (given a chance) it dissolves most substances.

AHA!   

magic_gro wrote:I mixed in with a blender 9 cups of reverse osmosis water, 18 tbsp of soy lecithin granules, 6 tbsp of calcium ascorbate and started the ultrasonic cleaner.

Where do you get your distilled water from? All places I checked out carry it in pastic jugs (like the gallon of milk jugs), made of the worst plastic... :'(

also, since I have the same ultrasonic cleaner as you, 4039, how much do you do at a time? if the level is two low, it will squirt up from above the two transducer elements, is that bad?

magic, for one thing that's WAY too much lecithin and water.  You can't use all that solution in a week and it's better to make smaller batches, especially until you learn what you're doing.  Why so much? Are you tripling some recipe you found, thinking more is better? Cuz it isn't. 

Again, did you even bother to look at the directions at the link I posted? Trust me, if you FOLLOW THAT RECIPE EXACTLY, IT WILL WORK. Can't be any plainer than that. Take that or leave it.

Also, what I advised you to do has ALWAYS worked for me, whether I used undiluted distilled water or water that I added minerals to (therefore presumably no longer pure distilled).  That is to say, your reverse osmosis water should work.  There's really no reason to worry about the sterility of your vitamin C water any more than you would worry about the sterility of the plain water you drink for hydration.   After all, you're not selling this stuff, it's for your own consumption, and both the water you drink and your vitamin C solution are going to wind up in the same place (i.e., your gut), right?

Good luck to you.  Hope you figure out this simple process soon.

P.S.  FWIW, I've never had any problems with my solution "squirting" anywhere from the jewelry cleaner.  Not sure what's going on there...

whodathunkit wrote:magic, for one thing that's WAY too much lecithin and water.  You can't use all that solution in a week and it's better to make smaller batches, especially until you learn what you're doing.  Why so much?  Are you tripling some recipe you found, thinking more is better?  Cuz it isn't.

I have a 2.7 liter ultrasonic cleaner (the Kendal HB23), so I don't think I can do small batches...

whodathunkit wrote:P.S.  FWIW, I've never had any problems with my solution "squirting" anywhere from the jewelry cleaner.  Not sure what's going on there...

It's got two 60W transducers on the bottom, so it's very powerful (120W), hence if the level of the liquid is low, it will squirt up...

Wow, that is a mack daddy cleaner for sure.  

I have this one

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018IIPFK/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So rather a difference there.  Same company, though.  

After looking at your pictures and thinking over what you've said I suspect you're just trying to do too much lecithin and water all at once.  Maybe you could try breaking up your lecithin/water mixture into batches...?  Like, get three or four quart Ball canning jars and split it up.  If you use the shaking method you definitely need at least 1/3 empty space at the top of the jar in  order for the solution to blend properly.  And shake vigorously, several minutes at time, at least three times over at least an 8 hour soak period.

After doing it this way you'd have the same amount of lecithin and water, but a higher probability of getting it smooth.  Then you could pour them all into the ultrasound at once so you'd wind up with one big batch.

Or better yet, follow the recipe at the link twice. Then just pour the two batches together before you ultrasound. More of a PITA but I'm betting you'll get a better result. Just break up your lecithin and water pre-mix and see what happens.

FWIW, it's also basically the same principle for using a blender.  If you try to cram your blender too full it won't blend properly, either, even a big powerful one like the Vitamix (which I have). You still need a good deal of space at the top of the pitcher to allow your mixture to blend properly.  So even if you try to blend it's not going to come out right unless you break up your batches a bit.

I don't use my blender for the lecithin/water phase simply to resist the temptation to overblend and possibly overheat my mixture. But blender is probably okay per tcpratt's link, as long as you can forbear not to let it heat up.

whodathunkit wrote:Wow, that is a mack daddy cleaner for sure.  

I have this one

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018IIPFK/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So rather a difference there.  Same company, though.

that's only 0.2 liter smaller than mine...

whodathunkit wrote:FWIW, it's also basically the same principle for using a blender.  If you try to cram your blender too full it won't blend properly, either, even a big powerful one like the Vitamix (which I have). You still need a good deal of space at the top of the pitcher to allow your mixture to blend properly.  So even if you try to blend it's not going to come out right unless you break up your batches a bit.

That's exactly what I did. My blender is an cups blender and I fused it in batches of just 2 cups. It has a blade almost at the bottom and a blade at the 0.5 cups mark, and then a blade at the 2.5 cups mark and a blade at the 3 cups mark. The solution went all the way up to the lid on the walls, yet the top two blades were dry.   

whodathunkit wrote:I don't use my blender for the lecithin/water phase simply to resist the temptation to overblend and possibly overheat my mixture.  But blender is probably okay per tcpratt's link, as long as you can forbear not to let it heat up.

I use a Ninja food processor as a blender, so the engine sits on top of the blender and doesn't transfer any heat to the solution.

http://www.amazon.com/Ninja-Professional-Blender-Chopper-Crusher/dp/B003O47MKA

Well, let us know how you do. I'm all out of ideas as to why your batches are turning out like they are. Nothing like that ever happened to me when I first followed the recipe at the link I posted. It came out good the first time and the only time I've really had a problem was when I overblended my solution and broke it down because it heated up.

Only thing I can think of is you're trying to use too much lecithin relative to water, period.

If you're trying to achieve the same consistency as LivOn liposomal C, I don't think that's possible for home made. It's just a different process.