The Alcohol Factor

I'm continuing a previous post on to a new thread otherwise it will get lost

HairSeeker wrote:

I’ve read that over indulging in alcohol temporarily increases estrogen levels, which would explain why most drinkers develop belly fat.

What are your thoughts on DHT suppression in men that are in their 40s? Is this still a concern for us, given that our T levels are a bit lower? What type of protocol do you recommend for men in this age range? Should we continue controlling DHT levels, or focus on balancing testosterone/ estrogen, reducing inflammation, improving circulation, insulin levels and digestive health? I’ve noticed that in my case, controlling DHT does improve my hair over time, but at a high price. Hair quality and density slowly improved over a 12 month period last year. The problem, again in my case, is an increase in shedding cycles. When I do not suppress DHT I have fewer sheds.
Thanks again for the advice.

HairSeeker

The most common myth perpetuated on these boards is that of testosterone. At any age, it is desirable to have testosterone levels as high as possible.

Here is why:

In younger people with MPB, it is the ultra low SHBG levels, allowing too much free testosterone to occur. Controlling DHT is more useful in the young because of the low SHBG.

In older men, the problem is that testosterone isn't high enough. SHBG at this point can often be too high, but beyond that, the lower testosterone levels give way to higher estrogen levels. This equates to the body making more potent DHT in order to compensate.

Clinically we see high estrogen and low testerone levels on those with insulin resistance. When insulin resistance occurs, much of the testosterone we make gets converted into estrogen, so the body will make more DHT as a consequence.

High estrogen depresses the thyroid, so in turn exacerbates insulin resistance. So refined starches are eaten, high glucose/insulin levels place the body into a catabolic state and one of hiberation.

Alcohol changes intestinal flora to change steroid hormone expression. The amount of mycotoxins from alcohol can cause a real problem in bacteria balance in the skin.

Good stuff IH,

How should young people with low SHBG levels go about raising those?

CS - So in the case of a man in his 40's with insulin resistance, sub clinical hypothyroid and confirmed elevated estrogen levels, taking a drug like Propecia will only exacerbate hair loss correct, since Propecia is known to elevate estrogen levels?

It sounds like, in my case, the solution is to start or increase resistance training, eliminate all sugars and processed foods, reduce complex carbohydrate intake, supplement with iodine/selenium, and reduce estrogen levels while boosting testosterone.

Do you feel that long term DHT reduction can lead to thyroid disorders and insulin resistance? I stopped Propecia about two weeks ago. If you were to guess, what affect do you think this would have on my health and hair?

May be completely unrelated, but around the age I started "regularly drinking" was when my hair worries kicked in.

tooyoung - do you notice an increase in shedding after a night out?

HairSeeker wrote:CS - So in the case of a man in his 40's with insulin resistance, sub clinical hypothyroid and confirmed elevated estrogen levels, taking a drug like Propecia will only exacerbate hair loss correct, since Propecia is known to elevate estrogen levels?

It sounds like, in my case, the solution is to start or increase resistance training, eliminate all sugars and processed foods, reduce complex carbohydrate intake, supplement with iodine/selenium, and reduce estrogen levels while boosting testosterone.

Do you feel that long term DHT reduction can lead to thyroid disorders and insulin resistance? I stopped Propecia about two weeks ago. If you were to guess, what affect do you think this would have on my health and hair?

HairSeeker: If you're trying to keep testerone levels at a higher level, you might wish to consider incorporating magnesium, DIM and /or broccoli along with vitamin D-3. Resistance training (heavy stuff) is a good idea; I've been doing that along with a series of sprints (short distances). I've been experiementing with progesterone cream the past couple of weeks – but will probably stop and switch to DIM supplementation. I'm not sure if it would harmful to do both, since they more or less do the same thing for "older men" (cutting down the level of "bad" estrogen) but I thought I'd give DIM a try. . .

I suffer inflammation all everyday, I haven't exactly got a hold on it. The thing is though, that after a night of heavy drinking I wake up with little to no inflammation.

For example, waking up the last morning after a night out I had no inflammation on my scalp at all. This time was the first time I realized that this was happening every time I drank heavily. I also had a stronger erection than usual, something that has been hard to achieve since coming off Finasteride. I also had a lot more volume in my ...

These signs lead me to believe that the drinking was actually beneficial to me in some way. I thought maybe its effect on my hormones or/and its vasodilation properties had a role to play. Now I'm not saying that I should start drinking to save my hair, but can anyone explain these effects?

Odysseus wrote:

HairSeeker wrote:CS - So in the case of a man in his 40's with insulin resistance, sub clinical hypothyroid and confirmed elevated estrogen levels, taking a drug like Propecia will only exacerbate hair loss correct, since Propecia is known to elevate estrogen levels?

It sounds like, in my case, the solution is to start or increase resistance training, eliminate all sugars and processed foods, reduce complex carbohydrate intake, supplement with iodine/selenium, and reduce estrogen levels while boosting testosterone.

Do you feel that long term DHT reduction can lead to thyroid disorders and insulin resistance? I stopped Propecia about two weeks ago. If you were to guess, what affect do you think this would have on my health and hair?

HairSeeker: If you're trying to keep testerone levels at a higher level, you might wish to consider incorporating magnesium, DIM and /or broccoli along with vitamin D-3. Resistance training (heavy stuff) is a good idea; I've been doing that along with a series of sprints (short distances). I've been experiementing with progesterone cream the past couple of weeks – but will probably stop and switch to DIM supplementation. I'm not sure if it would harmful to do both, since they more or less do the same thing for "older men" (cutting down the level of "bad" estrogen) but I thought I'd give DIM a try. . .

Odysseus - I have been on DIM for about two months now but I don't think it's helping at all. My test results, which I received today still show a high level of estradiol, and if it's above the range then it's far above optimal levels. My T is in the middle, where it should be for a guy my age, but I rather push it toward the high end. Results: E = 22.8 pg/ml (<20), T = 5.4 ng/ml (2.8 - 8.0). My vitamin D levels are also on the low end at 30 pg/ml. I've read that this should be 40 - 50. I've never thought about using progesterone cream, but may have to give it a shot. As for resistance training. This has been difficult for me during the last couple of years. I suffer from intermittent fatigue and have to push myself to workout. It does get easier with consistency, so this is no excuse. Thank you for the advice. I plan to make weight training part of my regular regimen starting tonight.

1..... - SHBG can be normalize (high or low) either by improving sugar metabolism or by taking iodine or improving thyroid function--almost all one in the same.

HairSeeker - Propecia raises testosterone levels and lowers DHT. It's effects on estrogen can result from excess aromatization. Propecia (Finasteride) interferes with the proper conversion of protective neurosteroids. Overall, the problems are diminished NO (nitric oxide), heighted anxiety and depression.

To be more specific, finasteride blocks Progesterone, which converts into allopregnanolone. In turn, this interfers with GABA receptors in the brain.

Moreover, finateride interfers with the conversion of dihydroprogesterone and allotetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone, inpedes the reduction of androstenedione to androstanedione (prevents anti-carcinogenic protection).

Antioxidants (lipoic acid, ecklonia cava, ALC, and so forth) improve glucose/insulin regulation. Also observing how mycotoxic foods may affect you (wheat, alcohol in particular).

CausticSymmetry wrote:1..... - SHBG can be normalize (high or low) either by improving sugar metabolism or by taking iodine or improving thyroid function--almost all one in the same.

HairSeeker - Propecia raises testosterone levels and lowers DHT. It's effects on estrogen can result from excess aromatization. Propecia (Finasteride) interferes with the proper conversion of protective neurosteroids. Overall, the problems are diminished NO (nitric oxide), heighted anxiety and depression.

To be more specific, finasteride blocks Progesterone, which converts into allopregnanolone. In turn, this interfers with GABA receptors in the brain.

Moreover, finateride interfers with the conversion of dihydroprogesterone and allotetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone, inpedes the reduction of androstenedione to androstanedione (prevents anti-carcinogenic protection).

Antioxidants (lipoic acid, ecklonia cava, ALC, and so forth) improve glucose/insulin regulation. Also observing how mycotoxic foods may affect you (wheat, alcohol in particular).

Sounds like stopping Propecia will improve my health, but is there any way to know what impact it will have on my hair, given that I have been on the drug since 2000? I’ve read that prolonged use caused the body to up-regulate sensitivity to DHT at the hair follicle. What are your thoughts on this subject?
I am on the top six and doing what I can to improve glucose/insulin regulation by eliminating alcohol, sugar and processed foods.

I never felt that alcohol heavily effected my hairloss/shedding although I will monitor this. CS, how often do you go out for a drink? For the past 6 months Ive been going out atleast once a week.

randle20 - Alcohol will not affect everyone the same way. As a matter of fact, it never used to affect me either, but that was five or six years ago. My ex was 15 years younger than me and we used to regularly hit the clubs/bars every weekend. Drinking too much was never a problem. But the body can take so much abuse before it starts breaking down. IMO, Your age, health, diet and level of physical activity will all affect how much you can drink without affecting your hair.
As for me, my party days are over.

I am still confused by the urban myth( supposedly backed up by research) that mild intake of alcohol is actually good for health. It is often quoted that peole who consume 1 or 2 units per day live longer than those that abstain.
This may have nothing to do with hair loss, but its still confuing. If alcohol is one of the top things to avoid( mycotoxin) then why does mild consumption appear to be beneficial?

HairSeeker- I don't think my hair "sheds" anyway but it feels a bit inflamed after.

Fibonacci - IMO Alcohol in small amounts of the 'right type of beverage' is healthy for a lot of people. Some people can handle more then others(russians), though genetically some should consume extremely little or none at all(asians). As race is not as black and white as it use to be(no pun intended), you'll have to 'listen' to how your body responds.

Beer today isn't what it was originally. Before it was brewed naturally, had a lesser alcohol content, contained nutrients, B vitamins (amongst other things) and was basically drank as a food. Kefir being a fermented drink itself has the ability to produce small(healthy) amounts of alcohol, which like all quality alcoholic drinks, the body uses beneficially. Quality wine, beer, spirits.. is all great, but in heavy moderation.

Personally I will not drink everyday, but occasionally I will have 1 drink of a quality alcoholic beverage(once a week on average). On a special occasion I'll have two or three, but it stops there.

Alcohol taken out of this context is extremely devastating for hair and health.

Silverin, thanks for the feedback. I am European caucasion. My problem with alcohol is that I drink it once per week but have quite a lot( about 6 beers.) My brain is in overdrive 6 days a week so my once per week cerebral release is very enjoyable and therapeutic. I actually love the feeling of being a little drunk and talking nonsense with my mates every Friday night. However, I have always suspected that this is bad for my hair, so reluctantly I am going to quit alcohol. I dont get any pleasure out of one drink, its either a bit drunk or nothing for me. It seems that a relative binge( i.e the 6 beers) is harming all the good my other 6 days of eating well and excercising do, and thats not worth it.
I wonder if there are any supplements that help to give a natural high( Im not thinking cannabis type high)....a well known nutitionist in the UK called Patrick Holford promotes a 'natural high' supplements mantra but I cant remember what they are...

Fibonacci - I am in the exact state you are in. Once a week but quite a heavy night, don't see the point in a couple of beers so I'm planning on totally giving up as well. Good luck with it.

Fibonacci - In the situation you have described (which is typical of the culture of todays society), alcohol has gone well beyond mere palatal appreciation and subtle intoxicating effects, to an outlet for suppressed emotion, stress. The need to get 'high'.

Once upon a time cultures use to have very frequent, if not daily ritual community celebrations, with Art, games, dancing and singing. Despite their already pristine lifestyle, this was an essential means by which excess stress was moved. This fundamental societal structure was an important cog in the wheel that was the natives harmonious way of life.

Stress once accumulated has either two options, be released, or stored and suppressed. This bottling up effect is highly detrimental to ones health. Not knowing any better, people unconsciously seek substance abuse (whether mild or severe)to release this suppressed emotion.

The difference between getting high on an external substance and getting 'high' on 'Spirit'/ 'Life', is that the former is ultimately escaping life(physically harming you), while the latter is engaging it(affirming, strengthening health). Being high on Life is literally living 'above' stress.

There is a time and place for substances like marijuana, but to escape the stress of life, isn't one of them.

Whether you're good at it or not, Art, singing and dancing are hugely beneficial for moving stress and balancing emotion. You might also like to check out things like emotional freedom technique, meditation, there are many things out there. My advice would be to find something that isn't an external substance.

Remember, find something that helps you engage life, not escape it.

Thats just my two cents.

Silverin
good points well made. I have long been interested in other cultural activities. I do meditate, I also have the Sedona Method as a tool to help with tension and stress. I play guitar every day, play football(soccer) twice a week, walk my wonderful dog on beautiful fields every night, listen to classical music regularly, and have a great life. My brain goes at 100 miles an hour, but not in a stressful way, more of an inquisitive way.
So, the point I am making is that I have a 'neanderthal' element in me that likes to 'dumb down'. the release is not so much stress release, but thinking release. Every Friday my mates and I meet up and we talk about football, work, women, ailments etc, and generally talk about low level stuff for a few hours. Combined with alcohol I find this experience therapeutic in itself.
Thats what I will miss about quiting. I realise this is just a formed habit, but its one I really enjoy. However, when push comes to shove, I am prepared to give it up.
Now if I believe those threads about abstaining from orgasm, I really will lose it, and will be happy to go bald.
Cheers
Fib

Fibonacci wrote:My brain goes at 100 miles an hour, but not in a stressful way, more of an inquisitive way.
So, the point I am making is that I have a 'neanderthal' element in me that likes to 'dumb down'. the release is not so much stress release, but thinking release.

I can't relate. I often have issues with 'over thinking', which tends to distract one from being in the moment of now.

(As strange as it sounds)For myself I've found child like optimism a cure for taking the edge off of the general unnecessary, over complicated, seriousness of life. Which is a kind of dumbing down in a way.

Oh btw I also play the guitar and I'm a classical music enthusiast.

Fibonacci wrote:Now if I believe those threads about abstaining from orgasm, I really will lose it, and will be happy to go bald.
Cheers
Fib

LOL!

CausticSymmetry wrote:
The most common myth perpetuated on these boards is that of testosterone. At any age, it is desirable to have testosterone levels as high as possible.

Here is why:

In younger people with MPB, it is the ultra low SHBG levels, allowing too much free testosterone to occur. Controlling DHT is more useful in the young because of the low SHBG.

In older men, the problem is that testosterone isn't high enough. SHBG at this point can often be too high, but beyond that, the lower testosterone levels give way to higher estrogen levels. This equates to the body making more potent DHT in order to compensate.

Clinically we see high estrogen and low testerone levels on those with insulin resistance. When insulin resistance occurs, much of the testosterone we make gets converted into estrogen, so the body will make more DHT as a consequence.

High estrogen depresses the thyroid, so in turn exacerbates insulin resistance. So refined starches are eaten, high glucose/insulin levels place the body into a catabolic state and one of hiberation.

Alcohol changes intestinal flora to change steroid hormone expression. The amount of mycotoxins from alcohol can cause a real problem in bacteria balance in the skin.

The higher the SHBG, the higher the levels of all hormones; SHBG is a foundation for hormones; it prevents hormones from being excreted from the body. Men who bald have higher levels of "free" IGF-1, "free" IGF-1 is shown to lower SHBG and when that happens it allows too much "free" testosterone to convert into DHT and estrogen. The result is you decrease your total testosterone levels (SHBG-bound-testosterone) which will increase the "free" testosterone level and that increases your total estrogen and DHT levels (SHBG-bound-estradiol and SHBG-bound-DHT), when this happens estrogen and DHT cannot be excreted from the body unless something displaces them from SHBG, like phytoestrogens or zinc.

When humans age their "free" IGF-1 or serum IGF-1 declines (which is good) and our SHBG increases (which is good), due to the lower serum IGF-1, which will also decrease "free" testosterone (which is also good). The problem is that when SHBG begins to increase as we age, so does SHBG-bound-estradiol. When estradiol binds with SHBG, it exerts the same effects as DHT, but these effects aren't blocked with an anti-estrogen, but rather an anti-androgen[1]...this is of huge importance to understand.

As for alcohol use, I'm under the impression that it helps hair growth, in fact I believe that dark-red wine is a vital tool in fighting MPB and its three related diseases; atherosclerosis, diabetes, and prostate enlargement.




[1] Estradiol Activates the Prostate Androgen Receptor and Prostate-specific Antigen Secretion through the Intermediacy of Sex Hormone-binding Globulin.

misterE wrote:

CausticSymmetry wrote:
The most common myth perpetuated on these boards is that of testosterone. At any age, it is desirable to have testosterone levels as high as possible.

Here is why:

In younger people with MPB, it is the ultra low SHBG levels, allowing too much free testosterone to occur. Controlling DHT is more useful in the young because of the low SHBG.

In older men, the problem is that testosterone isn't high enough. SHBG at this point can often be too high, but beyond that, the lower testosterone levels give way to higher estrogen levels. This equates to the body making more potent DHT in order to compensate.

Clinically we see high estrogen and low testerone levels on those with insulin resistance. When insulin resistance occurs, much of the testosterone we make gets converted into estrogen, so the body will make more DHT as a consequence.

High estrogen depresses the thyroid, so in turn exacerbates insulin resistance. So refined starches are eaten, high glucose/insulin levels place the body into a catabolic state and one of hiberation.

Alcohol changes intestinal flora to change steroid hormone expression. The amount of mycotoxins from alcohol can cause a real problem in bacteria balance in the skin.

The higher the SHBG, the higher the levels of all hormones; SHBG is a foundation for hormones; it prevents hormones from being excreted from the body. Men who bald have higher levels of "free" IGF-1, "free" IGF-1 is shown to lower SHBG and when that happens it allows too much "free" testosterone to convert into DHT and estrogen. The result is you decrease your total testosterone levels (SHBG-bound-testosterone) which will increase the "free" testosterone level and that increases your total estrogen and DHT levels (SHBG-bound-estradiol and SHBG-bound-DHT), when this happens estrogen and DHT cannot be excreted from the body unless something displaces them from SHBG, like phytoestrogens or zinc.

When humans age their "free" IGF-1 or serum IGF-1 declines (which is good) and our SHBG increases (which is good), due to the lower serum IGF-1, which will also decrease "free" testosterone (which is also good). The problem is that when SHBG begins to increase as we age, so does SHBG-bound-estradiol. When estradiol binds with SHBG, it exerts the same effects as DHT, but these effects aren't blocked with an anti-estrogen, but rather an anti-androgen[1]...this is of huge importance to understand.

As for alcohol use, I'm under the impression that it helps hair growth, in fact I believe that dark-red wine is a vital tool in fighting MPB and its three related diseases; atherosclerosis, diabetes, and prostate enlargement.


[1] Estradiol Activates the Prostate Androgen Receptor and Prostate-specific Antigen Secretion through the Intermediacy of Sex Hormone-binding Globulin.

misterE – So, what are your thoughts on Propecia? The drug does seem to work for me, but at a cost of side effects, such as depression, libido loss, slight gyno, increased fat retention, and fatigue. I would rather keep taking it if I can reduce the side affects, unless anyone can recommend a natural protocol other than the top six that may produce the same results. I have been on the top six for quite a while now.
My free T = 54.70 ng/dL. Range (.35 – 155), Total T = 5.4 2.8 – 8.0) and my Estradiol = 22.8 pg/mL. Range (<20).
I have confirmed my suspicion that my thyroid leaning toward the hypo end of the scale, but of course my doc disagrees.
Thyroid: Free T4 = 1.25ng/dL. Range (.10 – 12)
Free T3 = 3.6pg/mL. Range (0.2 – 20)
Total T4 = 9.6ug/dL. Range (0.3 – 30)
Total T3 = 1.2ng/mL. Range (0.1 – 8.0)
DHEA-S = 130.2ug/dL. Range (10 – 619)
Your thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated.

HairSeeker wrote:
misterE – So, what are your thoughts on Propecia? The drug does seem to work for me, but at a cost of side effects, such as depression, libido loss, slight gyno, increased fat retention, and fatigue. I would rather keep taking it if I can reduce the side affects, unless anyone can recommend a natural protocol other than the top six that may produce the same results. I have been on the top six for quite a while now.
My free T = 54.70 ng/dL. Range (.35 – 155), Total T = 5.4 2.8 – 8.0) and my Estradiol = 22.8 pg/mL. Range (<20).
I have confirmed my suspicion that my thyroid leaning toward the hypo end of the scale, but of course my doc disagrees.
Thyroid: Free T4 = 1.25ng/dL. Range (.10 – 12)
Free T3 = 3.6pg/mL. Range (0.2 – 20)
Total T4 = 9.6ug/dL. Range (0.3 – 30)
Total T3 = 1.2ng/mL. Range (0.1 – 8.0)
DHEA-S = 130.2ug/dL. Range (10 – 619)
Your thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated.

First of all, Propecia is crap. If it worked no man would be bald again, but what really bothers me about Propecia is that you have to make a sacrifice of either: taking the risk of developing side effects or maybe getting a small amount of regroth. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have a good sex-drive than a head of hair; what good is hair if you can’t have sex?!

What we must strive for is a body that has clean arteries and great insulin sensitivity. That type of body will have balanced hormones: free-IGF-1 low, total-IGF-1 (IGFBP-bound-IGF-1) high, SHBG high, free-testosterone low, total-testosterone (SHBG-bound-testosterone) high, free-estrogen high, total-estrogen (SHBG-bound-estrogen) low.

Balding people need to realize is that baldness is associated with: atherosclerosis, diabetes, and prostate enlargement [1] [2] [3]! So if you have a lifestyle that reduces or reverses these diseases, the better off your chances of regrowing hair, once you remove all the sebum build-up up there of course.

The evidence says that you can reverse these diseases by going on a low-fat/high-fiber vegan diet!
Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn has reversed heart disease and atherosclerosis with the low-fat/high-fiber vegan diet.
Dr. Neal Barnard has reversed diabetes and prostate enlargement by telling his patients to lay off the dairy and adopt a low-fat/high-fiber vegan diet because the low-fat vegan diets improve glycemic control to a greater extent than conventional diabetes diets [4]. Dietary fat also worsens insulin sensitivity [5] [6] [7]!

The low-fat/high fiber vegan diet is the one and only ultimate way to balance all of your hormones. It will decrease estrogen levels [8] [9] [10] lower circulating (free) IGF-1 and keep testosterone nice and bound to SHBG [11] unable to be converted, thus increasing total testosterone levels, which is what makes you testosterone dominate. In fact the evidence also shows vegans have 13% more SHBG-bound-testosterone than meat and dairy consumers [11].





[1] Association of benign prostatic hyperplasia with male pattern baldness.

[2] Male pattern baldness and coronary heart disease: the Physicians' Health Study.

[3] Androgenetic alopecia and insulin resistance in young men.

[4] Vegetarian and vegan diets in type 2 diabetes management.

[5] Dietary fat, insulin sensitivity and the metabolic syndrome.

[6] Saturated fat intake and insulin resistance in men with coronary artery disease.

[7] Low-saturated fat dietary counseling starting in infancy improves insulin sensitivity in 9-year-old healthy children.

[8] Effect of low-fat diet on female sex hormone levels.

[9] Effects of dietary fat and fiber on plasma and urine androgens and estrogens in men: a controlled feeding study.

[10] Effect of diet on the plasma levels, metabolism and excretion of estrogens.

[11] Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men.

MisterE, since you bring up sex drive loss with propecia, is it true that vegetarians have a lack of sex drive? I used to be celibate until a half year ago and I read books on controlling sex drive and I knew that the Spartans used to feed their people a vegetarian diet for the purpose of controlling their sex drive. DId you have any loss of sex drive when you went vegan? Obviously there must be some drop in sex drive since your free testosterone went down.

I should point out here that low fat and fiber have little to do with heart disease.

The real assocation with cardiovascular disease and hair loss is Lp(a) level, which is a pro-thrombotic small, dense LDL, the enzyme Lp-PLA2 which is produced in the plaque itself.

Saturated fat is inversely correlated with Lp(a). Conversely, vegetable oil is positively associated with Lp(a) levels.
This means the the more saturated fat, the less Lp(a) levels, and the more vegetable oil the higher the potential Lp(a) levels.

The lipid hypothesis died a long time ago.

http://www.amazon.com/Cholesterol-Myths-Exposing-Fallacy-Saturated/dp/0967089700

Vitamin C, iodine and saturated fat all lower Lp(a).

When I went vegan 15 years ago, my virlity was shot to almost nothing. It was embarassing. Things recovered when I returned to meat.

I've been a part of treating heart and diabetic patients several years now and, and low fat, high fiber was not in the equation. It is helpful for some, and it is estimated that the low fat, high fiber will benefit 15% of the population.