Are DHT blockers necessary?

Are the likes of saw palmetto, pygeum, nettles, pumpkin seed oil, green tea, emu oil, etc. necessary to regrow hair? I don't know how important DHT is in this whole situation anymore.

It depends.

As I say I think the core chain causing MPB/AGA goes:

CRH -> DHT -> excess keratin -> excess oil -> infection -> inflammation -> hair loss


So erm, I mean tackle it at whatever point you want

Keratin seems the easiest to tackle, but I think CRH is the wisest (I think I'm correct on CRH but not 100% sure). It's just hard to do is all.

Het (no)

Inflammation ^ 5-AR ^ DHT ^ ROS ^ TGF-beta ^ MMP-9 = alopecia

And Stress ^ CRH/CRF/neurogenic inflammation = alopecia

Inhibiting DHT = more stress, anxiety.....

The weaker "inhibitors" are okay, such as GTE, pumpkin and Emu...but they are not needed.

The best DHT blocker that I have used is Nu Hair DHT Blocker. The only issue is that it raised my liver electrolytes and my Dr advised coming off it. However, it worked almost as good as Propecia.

If you tackle the low oxygen issue then DHT shouldn't pose a threat

Blocking DHT to the extent that you are going to see an effect on the kinetics of this whole process is going to cause you other problems you don't want. Ask anyone who's been on the drugs. That's the problem with suicidal inhibition of a hormone in a cascade like this. Its just never going to give you the results you're after and will cause you a lot of harm in the process.

To be successful, you either need to get ahead of it and stop it at a very early step, or at a step very, very late in the cascade at the end organ.

In simple terms that means either eliminating the inflammatory trigger (stress, infection, oxidative/radical damage, abundance of inflammatory fatty acids, hormonal imbalances, heavy metals) or jumping in molecularly at the final steps. A good deal of the research suggests this involves prostaglandin signaling, PGD-2. The breakthroughs that will come at this end of things are exciting. But as an individual, you're likely going to be more successful in your own pursuits trying to head it off from the other side.

Hairloss is like a perfect storm, with the meeting of several fronts. You've got to have the hormonal environment, you've got to have the signalling that upregulates the cascade, you've got to have the receptor pattern, and you have to have the antigenic response from the immune system. Its like all of the blame that was put on cholesterol for atherosclerosis. Cholesterol's presence is required, but atherosclerosis is by no means caused by cholesterol. Its the same thing with DHT. Yeah, it has to be present, but the problem is the environment around it.

I truly appreciate all of the replies and good information.

SlowMoe wrote:If you tackle the low oxygen issue then DHT shouldn't pose a threat

How do you get more oxygen to your scalp? Derma rolling, brushing, pinching, massaging?

Growdamnit wrote:I truly appreciate all of the replies and good information.

SlowMoe wrote:If you tackle the low oxygen issue then DHT shouldn't pose a threat

How do you get more oxygen to your scalp? Derma rolling, brushing, pinching, massaging?

Those seem to work. Minoxidil, laser helmets, some supplements all boost bloodflow.

I like to compare hair loss to cancer and heart disease. I do so because the relationship is very strong with oxygen, cellular respiration.

That being said, my entire internal approach is based upon optimizing oxygen transport within the bi-lipid cell membrane.

Do accomplish that, the stuff necessary is require to transport electrons, and to keep inflammation at bay so that energy metabolism is optimized.

All the glands have to be working properly.

This means nutrients in, and toxins out to oversimplify it.

But oversimplification is a problem, because academia doesn't know the first thing about health.

For starters, there is very little in the soils...so supplementation of minerals/electrolytes (electron transporters is essential).

However, ask any run of the mill MD and they will tell you to watch your salt intake -- nonsense!

Asking about keeping inflammation down and a run of the mill MD will tell you to watch your cholesterol -- again, absolute nonsense, it's the opposite.

Heavy metals out, negatively charged minerals in. This is paramount for good health. What do most medical professionals do?  The exact opposite. Their idea of "good health" is to inoculate (poison) us with vaccines, expose us to radiation (via scans), and many other insults.

The two most important minerals to boost oxygen transport in the body is sulfur/sulphur and selenium. The four most important minerals for electron transport is sodium, chloride, magnesium and potassium..

When we block DHT with a natural substance to the point of sharply lowering 5-AR comparable to finasteride, we are not in a healthy situation at all. Cholesterol is necessary to transport sulfur into the body...we lower this, we are in trouble. However, a natural and healthy oxidation reduction (by way of plant based antioxidants is a safe way to reduce 5-AR).

Inflammation = lower oxygen. Remove the things that cause inflammation, we raise oxygen. Another simplification, but the above explains on how to deal with that.

About diet - I can't stress this enough - Please do not listen to *anyone* who says they have a perfect diet for everyone, this is the biggest myth of all. It doesn't exist. Since the 1960's, there have been determined to be at least 10 different metabolic types. This means that some thrive on carbohydrate, low fat, others thrive on high fat, low carb and various levels in-between.

CS,

As far as different metabolic types, how do I EXACTLY know what my body needs? I feel like I have the perfect diet for me, but I'm not so sure now.

The truth about DHT

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm

http://www.mikemahler.com/online-library/articles/hormone-optimization/dihydrotestosterone-king-of-male-androgens.html

Block DHT is totally unnecessary, if that were the cure for baldness drugs such as Dut It would be the cure

^

3 excellent posts

CS - how would you increase fat intake to increase cholesterol and pregnenolone?

Growdammit - you body change you have to adapt. I used to dunk my head in sea water for the minerals and electrons, it works but now 3 years later I've over done it... (ya think...)

ST - exactly!

I think one of the keys to proper cholesterol levels, besides taking in the right balance of fat types, is cold exposure. I've been studying up on a bit as of late because I was interested in how it effects cell membranes and cholesterol. Cholesterol is like cellular antifreeze. The cell membrane has to maintain a certain amount of fluidity. As temperature drops, fats tend to become solid, and the more saturated the fatty acids, the faster they solidify. Cholesterol prevents that by incorporating into the cell membrane and disrupting the intermolecular forces, maintining proper fluidity. This helps hormone signaling and ion concentrations in and out of the cell, so by extension the electrical potential of the cell.

The things is, in today's world we really don't get a lot of cold exposure, not like we'd expect that we used to. This mechanism also seems to come from our days in the ocean. I think human beings, at least our ancestors spent more time in the ocean than we probably know. Hence the cold exposure and cholesterol.

The problem nowadays is we get too many unsaturated fats and not enough cold exposure. Fluidity is a good thing to an extent, when there are too many unsaturated fats, you leave the membrane vulnerable to peroxidation because its easier to oxidize unsaturated fats.

For me, I think the key is to get more quality saturated fats and get more exposure to cold.I think ice baths are huge. I remember you made posts a while back about how much improvement you saw from being in the ocean. Its all in the same vein if you ask me.

AS54,

The ocean has astounding results on hair on skin. Not only have my diet and lifestyle changed, but a huge improvement was noticeable after I started taking cold showers.

"More exposure to the cold" yes.
I really cannot explain how important it's been for me personally to rinse with cold water and also begin exercising outdoors without headwear no matter what the weather. Embrace it!

Exercising indoors. I would sweat my bollocks off.
Very shaky after and saw this as a good sign that I'd worked my body hard.
But would also feel kind of drained as well.

Now running outside in harder conditions and same distance... Yet I don't feel drained or shaky after.

I wonder if indoors I was overheating > excess sweat > mineral electrolyte depletion

With regards to my scalp and hair since embracing the cold/wet - I can only describe it as a sense of calm up there

It makes me wonder if those of us who don't have easy access to the ocean could almost recreate it at home. I'm thinking run a cold bath (ice if you are really going for the cold stimulus aka torture), add epsom salts, and perhaps try to add some kind of weak current like we would with the mold detox foot bath.

Now here's where I need some input. Do you guys think it would be enough to run a current through the water for a few minutes prior to jumping in the bath, or would we get increased benefit from keeping it going for the whole bath? Would there be any problems doing it this way? Any input from the more electro-literate folks would be great.

CausticSymmetry wrote:I like to compare hair loss to cancer and heart disease. I do so because the relationship is very strong with oxygen, cellular respiration.

That being said, my entire internal approach is based upon optimizing oxygen transport within the bi-lipid cell membrane.

Do accomplish that, the stuff necessary is require to transport electrons, and to keep inflammation at bay so that energy metabolism is optimized.

All the glands have to be working properly.

This means nutrients in, and toxins out to oversimplify it.

But oversimplification is a problem, because academia doesn't know the first thing about health.

For starters, there is very little in the soils...so supplementation of minerals/electrolytes (electron transporters is essential).

However, ask any run of the mill MD and they will tell you to watch your salt intake -- nonsense!

Asking about keeping inflammation down and a run of the mill MD will tell you to watch your cholesterol -- again, absolute nonsense, it's the opposite.

Heavy metals out, negatively charged minerals in. This is paramount for good health. What do most medical professionals do?  The exact opposite. Their idea of "good health" is to inoculate (poison) us with vaccines, expose us to radiation (via scans), and many other insults.

The two most important minerals to boost oxygen transport in the body is sulfur/sulphur and selenium. The four most important minerals for electron transport is sodium, chloride, magnesium and potassium..

When we block DHT with a natural substance to the point of sharply lowering 5-AR comparable to finasteride, we are not in a healthy situation at all. Cholesterol is necessary to transport sulfur into the body...we lower this, we are in trouble. However, a natural and healthy oxidation reduction (by way of plant based antioxidants is a safe way to reduce 5-AR).

Inflammation = lower oxygen. Remove the things that cause inflammation, we raise oxygen. Another simplification, but the above explains on how to deal with that.

About diet - I can't stress this enough - Please do not listen to *anyone* who says they have a perfect diet for everyone, this is the biggest myth of all. It doesn't exist. Since the 1960's, there have been determined to be at least 10 different metabolic types. This means that some thrive on carbohydrate, low fat, others thrive on high fat, low carb and various levels in-between.

Great post - Caustic, you aren't this guy, are you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgbdNNfotwM.  

BTW, I noticed that my breathing is usually very shallow, but when I try to breathe normally or deeply, it is quite a laborious exercise. Could this account for low oxygen in bloodstream and, therefore, inflammation?

Hairy Potter,

Don't let that get you freaked out. Its easy to get conscious of your breathing and make it like a task and freak yourself out.

Some people (are large percentage) are shallow breathers. Some breathe more deeply and less frequently. The autonomic nervous system senses the concentrations of gas in the blood and will regulate breathing accordingly. Let the body decide how to breathe and stop thinking about it. Its something the body regulates carefully all on its own.

That said, shortness of breath can be a sign of a problem. But a lot of people mistake what SOB is. A lot of people, particularly shallow breathers, if they feel a bit of difficulty taking in a really deep breath, will think its shortness of breath. Shortness of breath really has nothing to do with the inhalation, but rather the expiration. Shortness of breath is drawing in air and then feeling that you can't full expel it, the expiration is cut off.

Shallow breathing and shortness of breath are totally different things. If you are naturally a shallow breather, the tension you are feeling when you inhale deeply is actually in the musculature deep to the pec major. You aren't normally using these to breathe very deeply so they can feel tight when you take a huge breath. Nothing to worry about there.

Hairy Potter wrote:

CausticSymmetry wrote:I like to compare hair loss to cancer and heart disease. I do so because the relationship is very strong with oxygen, cellular respiration.

That being said, my entire internal approach is based upon optimizing oxygen transport within the bi-lipid cell membrane.

Do accomplish that, the stuff necessary is require to transport electrons, and to keep inflammation at bay so that energy metabolism is optimized.

All the glands have to be working properly.

This means nutrients in, and toxins out to oversimplify it.

But oversimplification is a problem, because academia doesn't know the first thing about health.

For starters, there is very little in the soils...so supplementation of minerals/electrolytes (electron transporters is essential).

However, ask any run of the mill MD and they will tell you to watch your salt intake -- nonsense!

Asking about keeping inflammation down and a run of the mill MD will tell you to watch your cholesterol -- again, absolute nonsense, it's the opposite.

Heavy metals out, negatively charged minerals in. This is paramount for good health. What do most medical professionals do?  The exact opposite. Their idea of "good health" is to inoculate (poison) us with vaccines, expose us to radiation (via scans), and many other insults.

The two most important minerals to boost oxygen transport in the body is sulfur/sulphur and selenium. The four most important minerals for electron transport is sodium, chloride, magnesium and potassium..

When we block DHT with a natural substance to the point of sharply lowering 5-AR comparable to finasteride, we are not in a healthy situation at all. Cholesterol is necessary to transport sulfur into the body...we lower this, we are in trouble. However, a natural and healthy oxidation reduction (by way of plant based antioxidants is a safe way to reduce 5-AR).

Inflammation = lower oxygen. Remove the things that cause inflammation, we raise oxygen. Another simplification, but the above explains on how to deal with that.

About diet - I can't stress this enough - Please do not listen to *anyone* who says they have a perfect diet for everyone, this is the biggest myth of all. It doesn't exist. Since the 1960's, there have been determined to be at least 10 different metabolic types. This means that some thrive on carbohydrate, low fat, others thrive on high fat, low carb and various levels in-between.

Great post - Caustic, you aren't this guy, are you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgbdNNfotwM.  

BTW, I noticed that my breathing is usually very shallow, but when I try to breathe normally or deeply, it is quite a laborious exercise. Could this account for low oxygen in bloodstream and, therefore, inflammation?

For what it is worth I had a slightly related question yesterday, will post it here:

There are a lot of mouth breathers out there...I only breath through my nose, unless I am at a super high heart rate.

Nose breathing insures enough C02, compared with too much oxygen with mouth breathing....

Here's what I mean. If there isn't enough C02, then the body cannot utilize all of the oxygen they breath. It doesn't make sense at first, unless it is understood that the uptake of oxygen is improved, once enough C02 levels are present.

When people hyperventilate, it reduces oxygen level uptake, due to low C02....so a method that involves holding one's breath will help in these situations.

AS54 wrote:Hairy Potter,

Don't let that get you freaked out. Its easy to get conscious of your breathing and make it like a task and freak yourself out.

Some people (are large percentage) are shallow breathers. Some breathe more deeply and less frequently. The autonomic nervous system senses the concentrations of gas in the blood and will regulate breathing accordingly. Let the body decide how to breathe and stop thinking about it. Its something the body regulates carefully all on its own.

That said, shortness of breath can be a sign of a problem. But a lot of people mistake what SOB is. A lot of people, particularly shallow breathers, if they feel a bit of difficulty taking in a really deep breath, will think its shortness of breath. Shortness of breath really has nothing to do with the inhalation, but rather the expiration. Shortness of breath is drawing in air and then feeling that you can't full expel it, the expiration is cut off.

Shallow breathing and shortness of breath are totally different things. If you are naturally a shallow breather, the tension you are feeling when you inhale deeply is actually in the musculature deep to the pec major. You aren't normally using these to breathe very deeply so they can feel tight when you take a huge breath. Nothing to worry about there.

Thanks AS54, that makes sense - yes, you really can become over-conscious of your body and all of its involuntary functions (although breathing is technically conscious I guess), and I don't believe that's a healthy thing.

I definitely don't have SOB, if that's the definition. I've just been wondering why I have such tightness in my neck, throat, face and scalp - it's a horrible feeling to not know where it's coming from and, consequently, what to do about it.

Yup Caustic, I breathe almost exclusively through my nose too - I didn't know that about the CO2 levels though, thanks for that.

Its like a "too much of a good thing" situation. Being somewhat aware of your breathing has its merits. When you are anxious or nervous, or just disquieted for any reason you tend to increase your respiration rate, which only further contributes to your anxious state like a viscous cycle. In those instances, it can be very helpful to be aware of your breathing and to consciously slow it down, control the diaphragm and just focus on the movement of air in and out, in and out right. But like we've mentioned, there is a point where being aware of your breathing becomes hyper conscious and is unhealthy. People with some OCD tendencies, such as myself, can go overboard on it to where the awareness of breath can interrupt normal trains of thought. Really irritating. At some point I got over it by just telling myself to trust my body and let it do its work. I certainly wasn't doing a better job manually.

As far as the tightness, there are many, many factors that contribute to muscular tightness. Posture, nutrition, mineral and ion balance, psychological tension, frequency of use, etc. You could try some fascial release techniques and see if they help. Just google fascial release and see what you think. Another option would be to analyze your posture and try to correct any issues, at the same time correcting any pelvic floor issues. I would assess the calcium level in your diet, don't supplement calcium. Get enough salt. Don't overdo stretching, focus more on engaging the muscles in actual functional movements. Get yourself breathing heavy with exercise. If you can find yourself a good chiropractor, there are some amazing techniques that will release tension in the areas you are talking about. I'm no expert on these but have been the recipient of them and can say without a doubt that I felt different after releasing the tension. People carry their stress in different areas of the body, and psychological tension can easily translate into tension in those anterior groups (subclavius, sternocleidomastoid, pec major/minor) and more commonly in the posterior (traps, rhomboids, levator scapulae).

AS54 wrote:Its like a "too much of a good thing" situation. Being somewhat aware of your breathing has its merits. When you are anxious or nervous, or just disquieted for any reason you tend to increase your respiration rate, which only further contributes to your anxious state like a viscous cycle. In those instances, it can be very helpful to be aware of your breathing and to consciously slow it down, control the diaphragm and just focus on the movement of air in and out, in and out right. But like we've mentioned, there is a point where being aware of your breathing becomes hyper conscious and is unhealthy. People with some OCD tendencies, such as myself, can go overboard on it to where the awareness of breath can interrupt normal trains of thought. Really irritating. At some point I got over it by just telling myself to trust my body and let it do its work. I certainly wasn't doing a better job manually.

As far as the tightness, there are many, many factors that contribute to muscular tightness. Posture, nutrition, mineral and ion balance, psychological tension, frequency of use, etc. You could try some fascial release techniques and see if they help. Just google fascial release and see what you think. Another option would be to analyze your posture and try to correct any issues, at the same time correcting any pelvic floor issues. I would assess the calcium level in your diet, don't supplement calcium. Get enough salt. Don't overdo stretching, focus more on engaging the muscles in actual functional movements. Get yourself breathing heavy with exercise. If you can find yourself a good chiropractor, there are some amazing techniques that will release tension in the areas you are talking about. I'm no expert on these but have been the recipient of them and can say without a doubt that I felt different after releasing the tension. People carry their stress in different areas of the body, and psychological tension can easily translate into tension in those anterior groups (subclavius, sternocleidomastoid, pec major/minor) and more commonly in the posterior (traps, rhomboids, levator scapulae).

Thanks for sharing your knowledge man, really appreciate it - this forum has a lot of great contributors :-)

Having a more spiritual inclination, I find myself drawn to the relation between mind and body and so I've been experimenting a bit with releasing tension while in tense situations by being aware of, and redirecting thought patterns while in those situations.

Generally, social situations where I need to be taking a leading role are perceived by me as being the most 'dangerous'. Also, I find that the anticipation of these events brings on a lot of tension.

By 'dangerous', I mean that these events trigger anything from mildly uncomfortable sensations, to fight or flight response with cold sweats etc.

The reason that I am focusing more on the mind is that I am very aware that the tension that I feel is hugely more pronounced when I find myself to be in situations that I perceive to be stressful. The tension itself ranges from fairly mild at best, to feeling as though my skin has turned to stone (I guess that's where the saying 'scared stiff' comes from?)

Anyway - all that was to say that the tension varies according to what I am perceiving at the time, or anticipating - it is not just a uniform, random tension, so I feel that the area of mind / spirit deserves to be looked at too, in a healthy, measured way.

Hey, no problem man. I've got one more thing to say about all of this too. I am also someone who has serious social anxiety. It didn't appear until early adulthood after my father passed away. But those same type of situations as you describe gave me severe anxiety: public speaking, leadership roles, large groups of people, the thought of having to force small talk...you name it. I like to take a spiritual perspective on things when/where I can and that is one thing I chose to do with this for a long time. Well, I might not call is spiritual, but maybe some pseudo-spiritual stuff. I used the "Power of Now" and all of that kind of stuff to try and resolve it.

You know what? Despite the fact I saw truth in a lot of it, none of it helped. At all. I'm the kind of person who needs something with substance I can almost palpate, something with a little more meat to it than that.

I have avoidant personality disorder. It would take a while to type a good description of it, but the wikipedia article is fairly good. Basically we have anxieties about many of the same things other people do, just orders of magnitude greater and with certain tendencies. We are hyper aware of social cues to the point it disrupts conversations and we almost always take almost any social sign (even totally ambiguous ones) and view them as negative reflections of ourselves. The particulars aren't that important though. What is important is that I found a somatic (well psycho-somatic) reason for the ways I was feeling.

What changed everything for me was how I perceived that anxiety. Now that I had something concrete, something I could latch this all onto, I no longer felt like I was weird, or abnormal for having those thoughts. Its quite literally heritable, with a good percentage of transmission at the genetic level. I didn't have to go around thinking I was the only one with it, or that I was doing something wrong or not handling things normally.

Surprisingly this gave me more control over it than I've ever had. Probably because I can realize that these thought patterns aren't always under my conscious control. They are going to be thrust at me and I don't really have a choice about that, but I have a choice with how I react to the stimulus. Now I can be conscious when those types of anxiety are going to spring up (becuase I know the triggers well), and when they do I no longer have to experience them the way I used to. For whatever reason I recognize that they aren't reality. I think I used to consider myself a very "good judge" of social cues, situations, of the reality around me. So when these negative thoughts came about, I perceived them as reality and tended to have a self-negative tinge to them. Now I realize they aren't reality at all, or are distortions of it. I can ignore them now that I'm aware of them. They are no longer helping. There is literally a psychological/physical explanation for them, but I can control them. The map isn't the territory.

It might not be the route for you, but I've just found that finding something I could latch onto, give what i had a name, realize I share it with others, that the thoughts I have because of it aren't representative of reality, so I can choose to react to that stimulus or not react. I just choose not to. And its actually so easy to ignore it once I realize how powerless it is.

Growdamnit, sorry for changing the topic on your thread like this dude - I'll do a new thread for this kinda thing.

^^^ Very true AS54 - there's so much 'pseudo-spirituality' out there now with every so-called expert jumping on the bandwagon, but unfortunately a lot of it is just jumping through hoops and actually adds to one's anxiety to a large extent :-)

I've never heard of avoidant personality disorder, but will do a search to check it out. Yup, when you realise that your issues are not a whole lot different from mine, or someone else's, you don't feel like such a freak. And for what it's worth, many other people, perhaps on this forum, may not call it avoidant personality disorder, but they experience exactly the same things as you - we're all made of the same stuff, at the end of the day.

That's why bringing things out into the open, in a safe environment, can be such a transformative thing, because you realise that you're not alone.

I think you hit on something very key, which I've been thinking about for years - and that is the power perception and of choice. You're right, perception is not reality, it's simply something we have manufactured, due largely to our past experiences, and yet it is our perception of 'reality' that makes it real for us, either for better, or for worse. BUT there is always the power to choose ...

You're right, something to latch onto is extremely helpful. I have something that I can latch onto now, but it's not what a psychologist says of me, and it's positive, not negative. It's changed my life in every single way, although it has been a gradual (but no less profound) change ... but that's a topic for another thread.

Thanks for sharing man, I believe that a lot of people will benefit from you sharing your experience like that.

OK, I'll stop now - back to DHT blockers