I'm always running into this argument

"The modern, industrial lifestyle cannot be as bad as you claim since the population living in it is getting older and older".

Please help me rip that argument a new one. A really wide one.

This has been brought up on this forum before.

In short, IMO, acute situations such as trauma and acute disease due to lack of of sanitation was very bad in the past.

Now, we live longer due to better trauma medicine, better sanitation so acute issues are better handled but now many live in a state of chronic disease unlike the past.

Not to mention lifespan may have peaked and is expected to decline if it hasn't already.

Misirlou wrote:"The modern, industrial lifestyle cannot be as bad as you claim since the population living in it is getting older and older".

Please help me rip that argument a new one. A really wide one.

As rdkml noted, chronic disease is epidemic unlike in the past. You might cite these statistics.

http://cmcd.sph.umich.edu/statistics.html

(go to linked page and click on links for "source")

Chronic Disease Statistics

Asthma

* 7.0 million (9.4%) U.S. children have asthma [source]
* 12.8 million school days were missed due to asthma among children 5-17 years old in 2003 [source]
* 754,000 emergency department visits were related to child asthma in 2004 [source]
* 16.4 million (7.3%) adults currently have asthma [source]
* 1.8 million visits to emergency departments were related to asthma in 2004 [source]

Alzheimer’s Disease

* 7,900 (7.5%) hospice patients have Alzheimer's as a primary diagnosis [source]
* 231,900 (15.5%) nursing home residents have Alzheimer's Disease [source]
* 72,432 annual deaths are due to Alzheimer’s Disease [source]
* Cause of Death Rank: 7 [source]
* 2.4 million - 4.5 million Americans are affected by Alzheimer's disease [source]

Breast Cancer

* 191,410 new female breast cancer cases are diagnosed per year. [source]
* 40,820 female breast cancer deaths occurred in 2006. [source]
* 2,591,855 American women were alive in 2007 who had a history of breast cancer [source]
* Cause of Death Rank for Women: 2 [source]
* Breast cancer in the United States is the most common cancer in women, no matter your race or ethnicity. [source]

Diabetes

* 10% of adults 20 years+ have diabetes (diagnosed or undiagnosed) [source]
* 7.7% of adults 20 years+ have diagnosed diabetes [source]
* 28.6 million medical visits have diabetes as a primary diagnosis [source]
* 362,000 (24%) nursing home residents have diabetes in the U.S. [source]
* 72,449 annual deaths are due to diabetes in the U.S. [source]
* Cause of Death Rank: 6 [source]
* $174 billion is the estimated total annual cost of diabetes in America [source]
* $116 billion is the total direct annual medical costs due to diabetes in the U.S. [source]
* $58 billion is the total indirect annual costs (disability, work loss, premature mortality) due to diabetes in the U.S. [source]
* 23.6 million people in the U.S. have diabetes. [source]
* 5.7 million people have undiagnosed diabetes in the U.S. [source]
* 1.6 million: Number of new cases of diabetes diagnosed in people aged 20 years+ in 2007. [source]
* 1 in 3: ratio of Americans who will develop diabetes in their lifetime [source]

Epilepsy

* 2.5 million Americans are affected by Epilepsy. [source]
* 10% of people will experience a seizure sometime during their lifetime. [source]
* 150,000 new cases of epilepsy are diagnosed in the United States annually. [source]
* $15.5 billion: Estimated annual medical costs and lost or reduced earnings and production due to Epilepsy in the U.S. [source]

Food & Fitness

* 67% of adults age 20 years+ are overweight or obese [source]
* 34% of adults age 20 years+ are obese [source]
* 18% of adolescents age 12-19 years are overweight [source]
* 15% of children age 6-11 years are overweight [source]
* 11% of children age 2-5 years are overweight [source]
* 32.5% of adults engaged in regular leisure-time physical activity in the U.S. in 2008. [source]
* 36% of adults engaged in no leisure-time physical activity in the U.S. in 2008. [source]

Health Literacy

* 9 out of 10 adults have difficulty using the everyday health information that is routinely available in our healthcare facilities, retail outlets, media and communities. [source]
* 71% of adults age 60+ have difficulty using print materials in prose form [source]
* 80% of adults age 60+ have difficulty using documents such as forms or charts [source]
* 68% of adults age 60+ have difficulty with quantitative tasks [source]

Heart Disease

* 26.6 million (12%) adults have heart disease in the United States [source]
* 16 million annual medical visits have heart disease as primary diagnosis in the U.S. [source]
* 147,600 (11%) home healthcare patients with heart disease as primary diagnosis [source]
* 631,636 annual deaths are due to heart disease in the U.S. [source]
* Cause of death rank: 1 [source]

In the past it was simply a matter of odds. On average people did not live as long because sooner or later a fatal accident would occur. Now with our very safe lives, mostly living indoors and not at risk from the elements on average we will live longer. Not to mention the advances in medicine.

The real indicator is health and by far and away we are as unhealthy a population as there has ever been.

Good info Red Beard. Here is a quote.

Health Literacy

* 9 out of 10 adults have difficulty using the everyday health information that is routinely available in our healthcare facilities, retail outlets, media and communities. [source]
* 71% of adults age 60+ have difficulty using print materials in prose form [source]
* 80% of adults age 60+ have difficulty using documents such as forms or charts [source]
* 68% of adults age 60+ have difficulty with quantitative tasks [source]

I would bet these very same people have problem with lyme spirochetes or syphillis spirochete and other similar spirochetes and other l form bacteria and thus will be shown as being Vitamin D deficient and common to have bleeding gums.

Thanks guys!

What about this one (I did not say this!):

"I think we've always had these health issues but today we have something called statistics, that's why. Sickness is probably declining in the modern world"

Misirlou wrote:Thanks guys!

What about this one (I did not say this!):

"I think we've always had these health issues but today we have something called statistics, that's why. Sickness is probably declining in the modern world"

Chronic diseases are diseases of civilization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_diseases

It is generally impossible to make a dent in people's belief systems.
Can be fun to debate sometimes, though.

Misirlou wrote:
"I think we've always had these health issues but today we have something called statistics, that's why. Sickness is probably declining in the modern world"

I disagree. In general, IMO, we traded acute diseases and ailments for chronic diseases.

Life was very rugged and hard just a 100 or more years ago. As as mentioned sanitation issues.
Basic infections could be fatal, plus we have operations today for many potentially fatal problems, such as appendix rupture, tortioned appendages, hyperinsulinemia, acute pancreatitis, trauma an d blood loss, etc.

OTOH, many medical "advances" weaken the immune system, allowing chronic disease to flourish.

rdkml wrote:I disagree. In general, IMO, we traded acute diseases and ailments for chronic diseases.

Of course you do. Always rebelling against authority

People may be living longer now, but they are zombies, hopped up on medications and rx, limping through the last decade(s) of their lives. Just people watch at your nearest walmart, try not to stare, they bite.

Misirlou wrote:Thanks guys!

What about this one (I did not say this!):

"I think we've always had these health issues but today we have something called statistics, that's why. Sickness is probably declining in the modern world"

Plenty of research out there showing non westernized populations were almost devoid of diseases we see today. Weston A. Price did a lot of research on this. Usually before a couple hundred years ago, someone would either die from an acute trauma or an infection. There was no such thing as diabetes, heart disease, cancer, etc. These are diseases of modern age.

As a newbie here, it's interesting for me to observe that people (often, not always) post basically the same point of view as previous posts without acknowledging them. Makes me wonder if they're reading them.

elan164 wrote:People may be living longer now, but they are zombies, hopped up on medications and rx, limping through the last decade(s) of their lives. Just people watch at your nearest walmart, try not to stare, they bite.

Seriously - it's quite depressing seeing the zombies line up to collect their "medications".

Then there is the argument about statistics and diseases that goes something like this:

"The reason why we get all these new diseases today is because we now can diagnose them properly. Back in the old days, many of these diseases existed too, but either people died to early before the diseases could flourish, or they simply didn't know how to diagnose the them properly, and to an even lesser extend, collect statistics about them". These diseases are therefor not a result of modern living and industrial food production, but simply something that comes with life.

On the positive end, we have a lot of really helpful medications thanks to the great research and honest work from the pharmaceutical business".

He he I admit, that last part was a bit deliberately provoking Anyway, I would like to hear your arguments

Misirlou wrote:Then there is the argument about statistics and diseases that goes something like this:

"The reason why we get all these new diseases today is because we now can diagnose them properly. Back in the old days, many of these diseases existed too, but either people died to early before the diseases could flourish, or they simply didn't know how to diagnose the them properly, and to an even lesser extend, collect statistics about them". These diseases are therefor not a result of modern living and industrial food production, but simply something that comes with life.

On the positive end, we have a lot of really helpful medications thanks to the great research and honest work from the pharmaceutical business".

He he I admit, that last part was a bit deliberately provoking Anyway, I would like to hear your arguments

Hmm, you make a lot of sense. Thanks to you, I've seen the light!

btw, would you be interested in a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge?

Hehe of course I don't believe that BS written above, but I unwillingly bump into it sometimes from skeptics, that's why I want your best counter-arguments

Misirlou wrote:Hehe of course I don't believe that BS written above, but I unwillingly bump into it sometimes from skeptics, that's why I want your best counter-arguments

That was my best. I'm afraid I can't be bothered to marshall my great intellect any further than that when I am dealing with ignoramuses.

But since it's Christmas, if someone brings it up, just say, "Whatever, bro! Merry Christmas!"