MisterE was not crazy - Humans are plant eaters

Ok..forgive the title just wanted to get some views. This is a great video and addresses a lot of the paradoxes with regards to animal food vs plant food.

http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-ancestral-health-symposium.html

Sounds like the 8-1-1 diet fits this bill or am I misunderstanding?

Regarding potassium, my guess has been for a long time that potassium plays a role in much of this, at least the ratio. Spironolactone is for example potassium-sparing and can cause you to excrete sodium at a much greater rate while retaining potassium.

Yep 8-1-1 is sounding pretty good. Following this seems to guarantee a great K:NA ratio among other things. This is why fresh fruits should be a staple in our diets.

Yay 811 ftw! ^_^

I must admit although I do support diets like this, I do find 811ers can look a bit... wrinkly! lol

I think they often may limit fat and protein a little TOO much...

Erm... I'll have a good read of the article later when I'm actually on my laptop not my phone! But.. as many of you know I have been very interested in 811 raw veganism and hooked on Durianrider and Freelee vids lol

The reason being that I recognize that my body seems to always crave carbs more than fat (as does everyone's I think) and fruit seems a more natural source than grains or beans or whatever I do think that for a hell of a long time we have been eating meat to different degrees (even chimps eat a bit of meat usually) but that doesn't mean it's actually optimum food for us or that we need it.

And where IS misterE? Was he banned? I miss that dude!

When reading this article, keep in mind that uric acid could be a big factor in balding(especially for vertex balders)

I was there for this talk and Matesz did a great job.

There's a lot of evidence that low-carb paleo is NOT the right diet for hair support. Chris Masterjohn recently gave a talk in which he explained that the presence of free fatty acids in the blood decreased thyroid activity. Not to mention that a lack of carbohydrate can cause euthyroid sick syndrome and of course telogen effluvium.

Those 811ers have something, but avoiding protein doesn't seem like a good idea, due to its pro-thyroid pro-liver effects.

From article:

1) high dietary vitamin C (which lowers uric acid),

Anybody know why ascorbic acid lowers uric acid? And why does ascorbic acid make urine alkaline? You would think it's the other way around...

The human intestine is two and a half times times shorter than most herbivores.

Humans have one stomach and herbivores? They have between 2 and 4 stomachs.

In the past some of us tried to explain to misterE that herbivores have almost 60,000 times more enzymes than humans to break down plant cellulose in order to utilize the fat and proteins plant materials. In other words, we are not efficient consumers of this material.

Some people like myself cannot eat a lot of fruit. Suggesting that everything should eat all this fruit goes against thousands of blood chemistry tests, it's not appropriate for many people. Long term cleansing foods like fruit promote demineralization and dental decay.

Unlike herbivores we have an acidic digestive tract, which utilizes a load of lactic acid (acidic bacteria), which digests most of our food.

We have a digestive track similar to an omnivore, like a pig.

If this seems hard to believe for all the die hard vegans, why do so many former long term vegans exist?

I think if we`ve learned anything in the past six months is how much bacteria in the gut and outside the gut affect our ability to handle glucose and carbohydates, personally I`m like CS, fruits make my hair shrivel and die.

Some people like myself cannot eat a lot of fruit. Suggesting that everything should eat all this fruit goes against thousands of blood chemistry tests, it's not appropriate for many people. Long term cleansing foods like fruit promote demineralization and dental decay.

CS,
You've mentioned before that people from the tropical regions generally can eat more fruit, and that people from nordic regions are more efficient at digesting fats. Are there any other rules of thumb to follow when it comes to determining one's ancestral diet?

I think if we`ve learned anything in the past six months is how much bacteria in the gut and outside the gut affect our ability to handle glucose and carbohydates, personally I`m like CS, fruits make my hair shrivel and die.

I've been eating loads of fruit, and I haven't noticed any increase in scalp inflammation or itching. But I am originally from a tropical region, and this might have some bearing on my body's metabolism of sugar.

Last week for a couple of days I had massive amounts of mostly saturated fat (eggs, coconut oil, whole-milk yogurt, dark chocolate, beef, almonds) along with some fruit, and I noticed slight halitosis... It was also accompanied by an unusual disregulation of bowel movement. I can't be certain that the fat was responsible, but it's just what I observed.

After having read Ray Peat's articles about how sugar is the preferred cellular fuel (less oxidative stress when compared to metabolism of fats) and more recently about the relationship between high-fat meals and increases in endotoxemia, I am definitely less paranoid about sugar intake than I was one year ago.

On a somewhat related note...I find that onions have a really good effect on me.

apersonally I`m like CS, fruits make my hair shrivel and die.

IMO this is a digestion problem and not based on genetics...maybe try digestive enzymes or SCD, metal detox is probably most important(breaks enzymatic functions).

edit: the only exception are eskimos

mphatesmpb wrote:

Last week for a couple of days I had massive amounts of mostly saturated fat (eggs, coconut oil, whole-milk yogurt, dark chocolate, beef, almonds) along with some fruit, and I noticed slight halitosis... It was also accompanied by an unusual disregulation of bowel movement. I can't be certain that the fat was responsible, but it's just what I observed.

Best guess is the milk, it feeds pathogens and is not digestable with mercury toxicity.

FRUIT AND VEGETABLES

During the first months of the diet, fruit and vegetables need to be peeled, cooked and have the seeds removed.

It is very important to cook fruit and vegetables at first because the sugars in fruit are contained within a cell. The cell is surrounded by a cell wall of cellulose which is a "fence-like" structure. When the foods are given raw, often, the milking action of the small intestine cannot sufficiently extrude the sugars because of the rigid barrier presented by the cell wall. This results in undigested sugars being passed on to the lower bowel where they feed microbes. Cooking fruits and vegetables softens the cell walls and avoids this.

more: http://www.pecanbread.com/new/protocol1.html

Don NEVER said humans are hervivores. He NEVER mentions that humans can digest cellulose like hervivores.

The original paleo concept is falling appart. Also the insulin-obesity connection!


What I understand is that he proposes (like others do, and like primitive cultures have shown) that most calories should come from starches (plant food) and he provides evidence and ideas on why this is true.

Yes and I already know that humans can do well in other diets too.

abc123 wrote:Ok..forgive the title just wanted to get some views. This is a great video and addresses a lot of the paradoxes with regards to animal food vs plant food.

http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-ancestral-health-symposium.html

I still think MisterE is not only crazy, but also evil and brutally short sighted.

He said that things as whole wheat and other grains and seeds should be most of your diet (american style).

Now that is DIFFERENT to saying that avoiding neolithic agents of disease like WHEAT and using safe starches is good.

I believe he susbscribes to the idea that the human intestinal tract should also become a fermentation tube. Like CS mentioned, as if we could substract good amounts of energy from grasses, leaves, etc.

Plants are useful, they provide nutrients and phytochemicals, and like Don has shown, they might play a role into keeping us in balance.

mphhatesmpb--

Halitosis seems to come my way when I eat acid-forming foods, like excessive meat (even grass-fed), eggs, and so forth. Eating greens with it, like a good salad with kale, field greens, etc. seems to help balance out the PH.

I absolutely agree!

I had a big problem (stomach aches) with eating too much fats and not enough veg earlier this year. I am not made to eat that much fat.

Cooked Grains (Non-GMO) such as Beans, Lentils, Corn, will not cause inflammation and other problems in the body, it is a myth, they always were the main food of the natives of South America (Corn, Beans, Peanuts), Low-Fat Cooked Vegan works very well for hair loss could stop my hair loss with this diet, no have more inflammation in the scalp, my gut works much better than before, and finally to me this is the ideal diet to treat MPB

I'm doing the 80/10/10 (4 Months) and noticed some improvements in my body and hair, for me 80/10/10 is a perfect Diet for humans

Humans are naturally plant-eaters
according to the best evidence: our bodies

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

Meat in the Human Diet

http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030700pumeatinthehumandiet.htm

The Comparative Anatomy of Eating

http://www.earthsave.ca/articles/health/comparative.html

mphhatesmpb - Yes, some people can eat all the fruit they wish with no problems. These same people tend to do poorly on a heavy meat and fat diet.

It bears repeating regarding the dominant branch of a person's autonomic nervous system.

Generally, most people have an instinct to what makes them feel at their best, based on cravings (well, aside from junk food), mainly how one feels on high carbs or lots of protein.

According to your metabolic type, the balance of your pH depends on which side of the autonomic nervous system you stand; Sympathetic or Parasympathetic.

Let's say you fall into the Parasympathetic category or are Parasympathetic dominant. It means you are already alkaline, and to eat a vegetarian based diet will tip the scales towards over alkalinity.

Conversely, if you are Sympathetic dominant, your acidity will balanced out with a vegetarian based diet. Determining what type you are will make all the difference in your overall health.

Parasympathetic types usually come fashioned with a strong digestive system, allowing them to eat flesh foods, while Sympathetics do much better on vegetables and whole grains.

While the majority of us have a dominant branch of either the Sympathetic or Parasympathetic, others have an equal balance and they require a variety of food types.

LittleFighter wrote:

abc123 wrote:Ok..forgive the title just wanted to get some views. This is a great video and addresses a lot of the paradoxes with regards to animal food vs plant food.

http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-ancestral-health-symposium.html

I still think MisterE is not only crazy, but also evil and brutally short sighted.

He said that things as whole wheat and other grains and seeds should be most of your diet (american style).

Now that is DIFFERENT to saying that avoiding neolithic agents of disease like WHEAT and using safe starches is good.

I believe he susbscribes to the idea that the human intestinal tract should also become a fermentation tube. Like CS mentioned, as if we could substract good amounts of energy from grasses, leaves, etc.

Plants are useful, they provide nutrients and phytochemicals, and like Don has shown, they might play a role into keeping us in balance.

I agree the whole point was not to divide people but demonstrate the yin/yang balance between animal foods and plant foods.

Him from his blog:

So, looking at the comments as a whole, on the one hand some people seem to think everyone needs to think for him/her self, which I thought I modeled in this post, yet on the other hand, some seem to think I can't trust my own experience, so I should trust Wikipedia or some other medical source, and my experience is not trustworthy unless I can document it with references.

If you want to make all your dietary decisions waiting for double-blind placebo controlled studies to tell you what to do, go for it. But you might wait for years to get an answer from science of that type on which to base a decision, if the powers that be ever decide to investigate the question you have in that fashion.

Empirical knowledge has been the basis of the advance of human civilization for millenia. From my perspective, if you'd rather wait for 'the authorities' to produce the 'true knowledge' you are simply giving your own power away to those authorities.

A significant proportion of people who have heart disease progressing don't know it until they have an often fatal heart attack. Why? Because they don't know or they ignore the early warning signs of the progression of this disease. Western medicine has no systematic understanding of how disease progresses from minor to major in a logical evolutionary fashion, or how to see it coming without doing blood tests. Oriental medicine on the other hand has for millennia been focused on prevention of catastrophe by looking for early warning signs that can be corrected by dietary intervention.

LittleFighter wrote:

abc123 wrote:Ok..forgive the title just wanted to get some views. This is a great video and addresses a lot of the paradoxes with regards to animal food vs plant food.

http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/08/my-ancestral-health-symposium.html

I still think MisterE is not only crazy, but also evil and brutally short sighted.

He said that things as whole wheat and other grains and seeds should be most of your diet (american style).

Now that is DIFFERENT to saying that avoiding neolithic agents of disease like WHEAT and using safe starches is good.

I believe he susbscribes to the idea that the human intestinal tract should also become a fermentation tube. Like CS mentioned, as if we could substract good amounts of energy from grasses, leaves, etc.

Plants are useful, they provide nutrients and phytochemicals, and like Don has shown, they might play a role into keeping us in balance.

LOL, you say to this forum that MisterE is EVIL because he suggests whole wheat? You are a wacko! Most of the human population of this country knows that whole wheat is good for you, including myself, are we all evil too? No. You have found a little niche where you can make absurd claims like whole wheat being harmful for you, and everyone will just nod there head and agree with you.

Just a few days ago mphhatesmpb made the same statement about whole wheat, and I gave two studies, one with 1000 people in the test, and the other with 300 people, both saying that whole wheat was good for insulin sensitivity among other things. The only study they could respond with to support their side, a little study with 30 people, barely at the minimum requirement to be statistically significant. And it was with people who were already overweight, so maybe whole wheat wouldn't be a good choice for them anyway.

Anyway, I just love how this forum can make absurd statements like "whole wheat is bad." and then expect everyone to agree with them. And if you DON"T agree with this nonsense, then not only are you labeled crazy, but now you are labeled as EVIL as well, LOL. Let me give you a reality check, the rest of the planet agrees with us that whole wheats and a low fat diet is very good for you! If you believe whole grains are bad for you, then YOU are the one who should have to explain yourself and realize that you are the exception to the rest of the human population.

MisterE is a great guy, I still communicate with him through e-mail, and he has had great success with his avenue of solving hair loss.

Here's another study on whole grains being preventative of diabetes:

Whole-grain intake and the risk of type 2 diabetes: a prospective study in men1,2,3
Teresa T Fung, Frank B Hu, Mark A Pereira, Simin Liu, Meir J Stampfer, Graham A Colditz and Walter C Willett
1 From the Programs in Nutrition, Simmons College, Boston (TTF); the Departments of Nutrition (TTF, FBH, MJS, and WCW) and Epidemiology (FBH, MJS, GAC, and WCW), Harvard School of Public Health, Boston; the Department of Pediatrics, Harvard Medical School, and the Department of Medicine, Children’s Hospital, Boston (MAP); and the Division of Preventive Medicine (SL) and the Channing Laboratory, Department of Medicine (FBH, MJS, GAC, and WCW), Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston.
Background: Certain dietary components may play a role in the prevention of type 2 diabetes.

Objective: We examined prospectively the associations between whole- and refined-grain intake and the risk of type 2 diabetes in a large cohort of men.

Design: Men from the Health Professionals Follow-up Study without a history of diabetes or cardiovascular disease in 1986 (n = 42898) were followed for ≤12 y. Intakes of whole and refined grains, measured every 4 y by use of food-frequency questionnaires, were used to predict subsequent type 2 diabetes risk through multivariate analysis.

Results: We ascertained 1197 cases of incident type 2 diabetes. After adjustment for age; physical activity; cigarette smoking; alcohol consumption; family history of diabetes; and fruit, vegetable, and energy intakes, the relative risk of type 2 diabetes was 0.58 (95% CI: 0.47, 0.70; P for trend < 0.0001) comparing the highest with the lowest quintile of whole-grain intake. The association was moderately attenuated when additionally adjusted for body mass index (relative risk: 0.70; 95% CI: 0.57, 0.85; P for trend = 0.0006). Intake of refined grains was not significantly associated with risk of type 2 diabetes. After further adjustment for magnesium intake, cereal fiber intake, and glycemic load, the association between whole grains and type 2 diabetes was attenuated and the trend no longer significant.

Conclusions: In men, a diet high in whole grains is associated with a reduced risk of type 2 diabetes in men that may be mediated by cereal fiber. Efforts should be made to replace refined-grain with whole-grain foods.

Espio, epidemiological studies aren't scientific. All three of the studies you posted were epidemiological, and I told you this each of the three times. It went over your head every single time.

Estrogen has some important roles in brain function. Maybe you don't have enough estrogen.

Oh and before someone attacks my argument with some statement like "WHOLE GRAINS R BAD FOR U CUZ THEY HAVE CYTOSUPERTOXINS!!!" Please don't bother... EVERY single food has something in it that is negative, health wacko's can even find reasons why brocolli and cauliflower is bad for you! So please let's look at whole grains in the overall picture, insulin sensitivity, cholesterol, and other MAJOR effects on our body when whole grains are eaten over a long period of time.

Not scientific? My ass. Fine, hopefully this meats your requirements for being "scientific"

Improvement of insulin resistance after diet with a whole-grain based dietary product: results of a randomized, controlled cross-over study in obese subjects with elevated fasting blood glucose
Klaus Ravea1, Kerstin Roggena1 c1, Sibylle Dellwega1, Tim Heisea1 and Heike tom Diecka2
a1 Profil Institut für Stoffwechselforschung GmbH, Hellersbergstr. 9, 41460 Neuss, Germany
a2 Cargill GmbH, Lise-Meitner-Strasse 34, 85354 Freising, Germany
Abstract
Subjects with obesity and elevated fasting blood glucose are at high risk of developing type 2 diabetes which may be reduced by a dietary intervention leading to an improvement of insulin resistance. We investigated the potential of a whole-grain based dietary product (WG) with reduced starch content derived from double-fermented wheat during a hypo-energetic diet to positively influence body weight, fasting blood glucose, insulin resistance and lipids in comparison to a nutrient-dense meal replacement product (MR) in a randomized two-way cross-over study with two 4-week treatment periods separated by a 2-week wash-out. Subjects replaced at least two daily meals with WG and MR, respectively, targeting for a consumption of 200 g of either product per day. Total daily energy intake was limited to 7120 kJ. Thirty-one subjects (BMI 33·9 (sd 2·7) kg/m2, fasting blood glucose 6·3 (sd 0· mmol/l) completed the study. In both treatment groups body weight ( − 2·5 (sd 2·0) v. − 3·2 (sd 1·6) kg for WG v. MR), fasting blood glucose ( − 0·4 (sd 0·3) v. − 0·5 (sd 0·5) mmol/l), total cholesterol ( − 0·5 (sd 0·5) v. − 0·6 (sd 0·5) mmol/l), TAG ( − 0·3 (sd 0·9) v. − 0·3 (sd 1·2) mmol/l) and homeostasis model assessment (HOMA) insulin resistance score ( − 0·7 (sd 0· v. − 1·1 (sd 1·7) μU/ml × mmol/l) improved (P < 0·05) with no significant differences between the treatments. After statistical adjustment for the amount of body weight lost, however, the comparison between both groups revealed that fasting serum insulin (P = 0·031) and HOMA insulin resistance score (P = 0·049) improved better with WG than with MR. We conclude that WG favourably influences metabolic risk factors for type 2 diabetes independent from the amount of body weight lost during a hypo-energetic diet