Phytoandrogens

Has anyone taken a good look at phytoandrogens and their affect on hair loss or growth for that matter? I have been reading a lot of information on this topic and have been intrigued by their efficacy for increasing Testosterone. Some herbs not only increase T they also prevent it from being converted to estrogen. The obvious question I have not been able to determine is whether these phytoandrogens will be converted to DHT and therefore contribute to hair loss. Or does the increase in T nullify any potential DHT conversion?

For example these are phytoandrogens:
Ginseng
Green Tea - suspect
Hibiscus Rosa Sinensis
Eucommia - supposed to be good for hair
Ginseng - supposed to be good for hair
red meat
Saw Palmetto

Hopefully the information I have gathered throughout the internet and my research is correct.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

And yes I have seen SP labeled as an anti-androgen as well.

Also this conversation is focused on Pine Pollen. Hopefully I didn't leave anything else out.

**late edit: I also wanted to also ask the question on if DHT is truly the bad guy in all of this or if it is possible that it is excess estrogens in our environment.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'phytoandrogens.' The foods you listed might contain molecules that mimic androgens by binding to the androgen receptor, but the foods themselves aren't phytoandrogens. The binding of the phytoandrogens to the AR can have a wide range of physiological effects. It can have the same effects as endogenous androgens like T/DHT, or it can have an anti-androgenic effect (since it's competing with T/DHT).

Testosterone can be enzymatically converted to estrogen (by aromatase) or DHT (by 5AR).

There are many substances which will modulate androgen metabolism by either inhibiting or increasing the activity of either aromatase or 5AR. For example, EGCG in green tea inhibits both aromatase and 5AR.

From the studies I read Pine Pollen is bio-identical to Testosterone.

Also of interest by me is if anyone has located information on if estrogen is truly the cause of hair loss and not DHT. Further question on that topic is does our bodies convert T into DHT in order to maintain an androgen dominance? Taking into consideration DHT is 5 times more potent than T and does not convert to estrogen. Thus if our bodies are being bombarded with mass amounts of estrogens then our body would likely do something abnormal to maintain that androgen dominance.

**Late edit: This study support the theory that increasing T lowers DHT. Although it could simply be the T they used. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18811920

I read somewhere that estrogen actually promotes hair growth, at least when you're analyzing its direct interaction with hair follicles. Some researchers believe that female pattern baldness is not as severe (ie., no bald spots, hairline recession) because women have high amounts of the aromatase enzyme in the adipose tissue of their scalps. This makes sense since aromatase and 5AR compete for testosterone.

Here's a more detailed analysis of estrogen's interaction with hair follicles:
http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/27/6/677.full

I'm too tired to actually read it right now.

mphatesmpb wrote:I read somewhere that estrogen actually promotes hair growth, at least when you're analyzing its direct interaction with hair follicles. Some researchers believe that female pattern baldness is not as severe (ie., no bald spots, hairline recession) because women have high amounts of the aromatase enzyme in the adipose tissue of their scalps. This makes sense since aromatase and 5AR compete for testosterone.

Here's a more detailed analysis of estrogen's interaction with hair follicles:
http://edrv.endojournals.org/content/27/6/677.full

I'm too tired to actually read it right now.

Right, but it depends on the estrogen. When looking at woman who enter menopause they have high levels of bad estrogens as there are three different ones. Their progesterone also decreases. When they hit that point in their life they begin to loose hair. So is it a coincidence that bad estrogens increase at older age and contribute to hair loss?

The reason for the confusion is that thyroid hormone & stress response is really the center of it all.

Elevated prolactin triggers hair loss, and it is a sign of lower functioning thyroid hormone.

While estrogen can inhibit DHT, it also suppresses thyroid function.

Iodine helps to normalize both thyroid function and prolactin elevation.

Iodine also antagonizes estrogen.

Too much estrogen will inhibit iodine absorption/uptake.

Too much estrogen impairs glucose metabolism.

Impaired thyroid function is the root of impaired glucose metabolism.

While young males have high testosterone, they have very low SHBG, that is if they
have a tendency to bald. Correcting thyroid/iodine will resolve the subnormal SHBG problem.

Older males will no longer have low SHBG, but their testosterone will reduce and their estrogen
levels will rise. Balding will worsen as this transition continues.

Men who have low testosterone often have insulin resistance and when they are given testosterone
patches or injections, there will be a heavier conversion of T into estrogen.

However, Panax ginseng and many other plant based endocrine modulators are very good for hair.

Cortisol for example is attenuated in response to Panax ginseng. Also sugar metabolism is improved.
The same applies to fenugreek and other "phytotestosterone" like substances. They are pro-hair and good for glucose metabolism.

Saw Palmetto stimulates the glandular system. However, too much beta sitosterol, which is a phytosterol used to 'treat' BPH and hair loss can have some negative effects in large dosages. It inhibits the absorption of the substrate (cholesterol), in order to build new hormones.

I believe that ultimately, correcting thyroid dysfunction will resolve the fundamental issue of MPB, which is highly misdiagnosed, due to a "gold standard" test that is virtually worthless and has been proven to be worthless.

Correcting impair thyroid function requires a holistic treatment, not merely an isolated substance. A combination of resolving oxidative stress (water and fat soluble antioxidants), heavy metal chelation, iodine and last, but not least is optimizing stress response, i.e, using methods or supplements to reduce the impact of corticotrophin releasing hormone.

When there is a rise in CRF due to stress, there is a subsequent reduction of necessary hormones (neurosteriods) to protect against stress and MPB. In essence, cortisol is a catabolic hormone (break down), and a chronic release of CRF due to highly sensitive stress response will exacerbate a hormone imbalance.

estradiol-beta inhibits hair growth
estradiol-alpha promotes hair growth

I tend to agree with CS that thyroid plays a large role. We live in a world where deficiency of some materials are common in our diet, and we antagonize those minerals by eating a bad diet. A study from 2007 clearly stated that 97% of all Americans are potassium deficient, and 55% are magnesium deficient(magnesium deficiency is often a catalyst for potassium deficiency). The reason we don't have as much of these minerals is because they aren't being renewed in soil or water(water used to be the main source of magnesium) and diet with a lot of sugar, wheat, coffee along with stress will deplete these minerals.

The body needs magnesium to metabolize estrogen in the liver properly, and women have a larger relationship with magnesium due to the relationship between estrogen and magnesium. Some theorize that the reason for women's lack of CVD in early life is due to this relationship.

edit:

I have been dealing with anxiety and depression all my life, and iodine, zinc, and potassium didn't do much until I added magnesium. Now, when I feel blue or wired, I just pop magnesium and I feel great after an hour.

Totally agree Trans-girl, magnesium is essential stuff. I wouldn't go a day without it. I make sure to take it to keep telomeres from shortening prematurely.

Too bad that practicioners in physical and mental health haven't caught up on these severe imbalances. I read a study by a French and a Dutch scientist who measured magnesium levels in individuals with mental problems and found out that by supplementing with magnesium they were able to increase the quality of life considerably in those patients. Another food for thought is that same scientists found out that people who commit suicide are incredibly low on magnesium as well.

Instead we'll just get some pills like Zoloft and prozac. It is more profitable than selling unpatentable magnesium supplements.

CausticSymmetry wrote:
While estrogen can inhibit DHT, it also suppresses thyroid function.

IH,

Not cherry picking here, but isn't that the point? While correcting the thyroid is key to your end success, getting your hormones balanced along the way is key to correcting your thyroid. Also what are your thoughts on my, albeit lacking in any specific evidence, hypothesis on estrogens increasing in the male body triggering it to convert T to DHT to fightt off feminization?

That is just a side topic though as I am really interested in your knowledge about phytoandrogens. Considering the reason while we are all here, is it considered safe to boost T? As you can see from an above link some men, old men, were administered a T gel. While it increased their T, as expected, it also subsequently lowered their DHT. I am looking at pine pollen to add bulk. Does raising T automatically raise DHT as so many people have stated so matter-o-factly? Or does the study prove that DHT is decreased with larger amounts of T?

sublime - I agree, there doesn't seem to be any supporting evidence on higher DHT conversion from testosterone, especially in aging men. However, DHT appears to be more of a factor for younger men who already have high testosterone.

Young men seem to have more problems with DHT and this may explain why blocking androgens is most successful in that group (up until the mid-20's).

Older men have continuing disparity of testosterone and estrogen (less T and more E). Most importantly, they exhibit rising prolactin levels. This seems to be key for losing hair for this group.

In either group, high insulin response will have a negative reaction. Also prolactin seems to be a factor in both as well.

Regarding what influences the conversion on DHT lower levels of antioxidant enzymes (Glutathione) and higher oxidative stress.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1606541/?tool=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14758568

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16552990

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17419309

Awesome stuff.

Some great information to take away from this. Increasing T does not necessarily influence the increase of DHT. That rumor is probably why so many people are freaked out to get into weight lifting. I noticed no difference when I went heavy into weights for several months. So something like pine pollen, which has been found to increase T, should not influence an uptick in DHT. Of note as well pine pollen increases glutathione, so there may be some additional helper constituents in that herb.

Never really delved to deep into prolactin, but I think I'll add mucuna pruriens for a few months and see what happens. Prague's review of the effects made me quite interested in it. Now I just need to find a quality brand.

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll let you know if any of it makes a difference.