Nizoral and sodium laureth sulfate!

I've been avoiding SLS ever since my hair loss started getting worse (over a yr now)..
Today, I bought nizoral as suggested by the IH regimen, and to my surprise it has SLS.

I thought SLS was too harsh on the scalp and hair? should I use Nizoral or not? If not what's the alternative?

Thanks!

I use Nizoral once every three days, and even though a lot of answers have been handed around on the forums about whether it's good for your hair or not... I would like a definitive answer. Maybe the cream or foam would be better?

Immortal Hair has never recommended Nizoral and has always discouraged people from using shampoo's with SLS. Others in here may say they use it, but IH does not.

wow, you are right! where did i become under the impression that nizoral was a part of the IH regimen!

true, maybe the cream or foam dont have SLS. I will check into that.

Since nizoral is not part of the IH suggestions, I wont use it.

Thanks!

On the subject of SLS.... Is sodium cocoyl sulfate OK, because it is an ingredient in my "SLS free" shampoo?

I believe the foam and cream options don't have sls and some drying ingredients found in the shampoo, allowing people to use nizoral more frequently and for longer, increasing the effect it has.

ezmbh wrote:I've been avoiding SLS ever since my hair loss started getting worse (over a yr now)..
Today, I bought nizoral as suggested by the IH regimen, and to my surprise it has SLS.

I thought SLS was too harsh on the scalp and hair? should I use Nizoral or not? If not what's the alternative?

Thanks!

For the record, I've never recommended Nizoral (Ketoconazole) ever.

If needed, I have recommended this topical: http://www.immortalhair.org/topicals.htm

CausticSymmetry wrote:
I've never recommended Nizoral (Ketoconazole) ever.

Why?

misterE - #1 it's not natural, and #2 Lithium/DMSO is superior (based on the research).

The only downside is that some will experience inflammation from it (about 13% of cases using a much higher amount of lithium than I recommend).

CausticSymmetry wrote: Lithium/DMSO is superior (based on the research).

CS
Will you please post the research?

Note that the following studies use 8% lithium gel. This dose is much higher than necessary. My recommendation is lithium as orotate used with DMSO, which not only improves penetration, but has its own benefit.

Ann Dermatol Venereol. 2007 Apr;134(4 Pt 1):347-51.
[Lithium gluconate 8% in the treatment of seborrheic dermatitis]

[Article in French]

Dréno B, Blouin E, Moyse D.

Département de Dermatologie, CHU de Nantes, 44035 Nantes Cedex. bdreno@wanadoo.fr


Seborrheic dermatitis is a chronic from of inflammatory dermatitis characterized by erythema and desquamation with predominant localization on the face (nasolabial folds, eyebrows, hair-line and ears). It appears to be caused by proliferation of Malassezia yeasts. Lithium gluconate 8% gel (Lithioderm 8% gel) is the only drug containing topical lithium salt commercially available in France for the treatment of seborrheic dermatitis. The mechanism of action of topical lithium is not well known; it may act through anti-inflammatory and antifungal action. Efficacy and safety were assessed in 2 clinical studies, one versus placebo and the other versus ketoconazole 2% foaming gel using the same principal criterion defined as the rate of patients showing complete remission after 2 months of treatment (complete disappearance of both erythema and desquamation). Lithium gluconate 8% was significantly more effective than placebo and than ketoconazole 2% foaming gel and was well tolerated. Adverse events observed were cutaneous (burning sensation, erythema and pruritus), for the most part of mild severity. No cutaneous side effects contributed to those reported with the use of systemic lithium in psychiatric disorders were noted. Pharmacokinetic studies have shown that systemic absorption after topical application is low. Lithioderm 8% gel is applied twice daily over a recommended period of 2 months. It constitutes a new alternative in the treatment of facial seborrheic dermatitis, regardless of severity.

Br J Dermatol. 2003 Jun;148(6):1230-6.
Lithium gluconate 8% vs ketoconazole 2% in the treatment of seborrhoeic dermatitis: a multicentre, randomized study.

Dreno B, Chosidow O, Revuz J, Moyse D; STUDY INVESTIGATOR GROUP.

Clinique Dermatologique, CHU Nantes, Hôtel Dieu, BP 1005, 44305 Nantes cedex, France. bdreno@wanadoo.fr
Abstract

BACKGROUND: Lithium significantly improved seborrhoeic dermatitis symptoms in comparison with placebo. Objectives This randomized controlled trial was designed to show a non-inferiority of 15% (primary end-point) of lithium gluconate 8% ointment compared with ketoconazole 2% emulsion. METHODS: The study population comprised out-patients who had facial seborrhoeic dermatitis for at least 2 months, with moderate to severe erythema and desquamation at inclusion. The primary end-point was complete remission, defined as the disappearance of both erythema and desquamation. The non-inferiority of lithium was assessed on the 95% confidence interval (CI) of the difference between treatments. RESULTS: The intent-to-treat analysis (ITT) involved 288 patients and the per protocol (PP) analysis 269 patients. Treatment groups were comparable at baseline on age, sex, disease duration and symptoms. For the main criterion, the success rate was 52.0% (lithium) vs. 30.1% (ketoconazole) in the ITT population and 53.2% (lithium) vs. 30.7% (ketoconazole) in the PP population. The non-inferiority of lithium was demonstrated with differences of 21.9% (95% CI 10.0-33.7%) and 22.5% (95% CI 10.2-34.8%), respectively, in the ITT and PP population. As the lower limit of the 95% CI was > 0, the superiority of lithium was shown. Lithium also showed better results on other symptoms: burning and dryness. Adverse events were reported by 26.3% (lithium) and 25% (ketoconazole) of patients. CONCLUSIONS: Lithium was 22% more effective than ketoconazole in giving complete remission of seborrhoeic dermatitis, with comparable safety.

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 May 13;100(10):5834-9.
A Wnt- and beta -catenin-dependent pathway for mammalian cardiac myogenesis.

Nakamura T, Sano M, Songyang Z, Schneider MD.

Center for Cardiovascular Development and Department of Biochemistry, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX 77030, USA.
Abstract

Acquisition of a cardiac fate by embryonic mesodermal cells is a fundamental step in heart formation. Heart development in frogs and avians requires positive signals from adjacent endoderm, including bone morphogenic proteins, and is antagonized by a second secreted signal, Wnt proteins, from neural tube. By contrast, mechanisms of mesodermal commitment to create heart muscle in mammals are largely unknown. In addition, Wnt-dependent signals can involve either a canonical beta-catenin pathway or other, alternative mediators. Here, we tested the involvement of Wnts and beta-catenin in mammalian cardiac myogenesis by using a pluripotent mouse cell line (P19CL6) that recapitulates early steps for cardiac specification. In this system, early and late cardiac genes are up-regulated by 1% DMSO, and spontaneous beating occurs. Notably, Wnt3A and Wnt8A were induced days before even the earliest cardiogenic transcription factors. DMSO induced biochemical mediators of Wnt signaling (decreased phosphorylation and increased levels of beta-catenin), which were suppressed by Frizzled-8Fc, a soluble Wnt antagonist. DMSO provoked T cell factor-dependent transcriptional activity; thus, induction of Wnt proteins by DMSO was functionally coupled. Frizzled-8Fc inhibited the induction of cardiogenic transcription factors, cardiogenic growth factors, and sarcomeric myosin heavy chains. Likewise, differentiation was blocked by constitutively active glycogen synthase kinase 3beta, an intracellular inhibitor of the Wntbeta-catenin pathway. Conversely, lithium chloride, which inhibits glycogen synthase kinase 3beta, and Wnt3A-conditioned medium up-regulated early cardiac markers and the proportion of differentiated cells. Thus, Wntbeta-catenin signaling is activated at the inception of mammalian cardiac myogenesis and is indispensable for cardiac differentiation, at least in this pluripotent model system.

Thank you CS. I understand the first two studies, but not the last. Would you explain?

misterE - Regarding the last study, which I'll reference both Lithium and DMSO, well lithium is a well known inhibitor of GSK-3beta (Glycogen synthase kinase 3beta). GSK-3beta is the primary mechanism behind sebum. So this in part is how lithium works, is that it cuts the "grease" and malassezzia populations reduce significantly.

With their depopulation, there is less opportunity of the enzyme phospholipase A2 (PLA,2) to break down the sebum and release AA (Arachadonic acid), which in turn releases a more potent mix of inflammatory cytokines.

Regarding DMSO, it mediates Wnt signaling, and in particular the one that is most expressed in de novo hair growth, which is Wnt3A. This also preserves the activity of increased levels of beta-catenin, which is normally suppressed by GSK-3beta.

In the beginning, I had pretty high hopes for the lithium/DMSO combo, because I thought it had the potential to recapitulate embryonic stem cell differentiation. Or to put it another way, allow existing stem cells in the skin to change into hair follicles. Unfortunately, this action did not occur at least pervasively. However, upon the many experimenters at the time, there was some evidence of new hair growth, but nothing to any great extent. This involved intentional wounding to the scalp using a small lancet or needle, which would stimulation growth factors--and with the lithium and DMSO present it would (in theory) keep GSK-3beta at bay, while simultaneously preserving beta-catenin and activate Wnt-3A.

However, one thing was quite evident and was that the lithium/DMSO combination did without a doubt, downregulate GSK-3beta and has a robust effect on cutting down sebum.

Having used this topical (rinse) in my shampoo for over a year, I discovered (as well as others) that sprouting new hair was not going to happen. Before I reached a point of improving my internal regimen, this topical rinse helped eliminate the sebum I experienced at the time.

This taught me that sebum was not everything, and there was existing research at the time that suggested it wasn't. Turned out that inflammation was still a problem, as well as electrical adhesion forces that govern the hair bulb and the dermal papilla, paracrine and autocrine messengers, and of course later, bacterial and neurogenic inflammation.

Thanks CS. I believe you explained the whole balding process in your beautifully written article: The Cause Of Acne. Would you agree that the same mechanisms and pathways that are involed in acne are identical to MPB? Same goes for dandruff, psoriasis and seborrhea.

I'm inclined to believe that free-IGF-1 and free-testosterone enlarges and stimulates the sebaceous glands to produce more sebum, which provides food for the fungus. The fungus indirectly causes accelerating skin shedding, only in our case the dead-skin cells don't shed like it does in dandruff, instead they accumulate on the scalp, inhibiting any new hair growth.


CS, I've been experimenting with athletes-foot-spray (miconazole-nitrate-2%). I've been spraying this on my scalp nightly with no adverse reactions like irritation or shedding! Do you have any input on this?

misterE - If stress is a non-issue, no pervasive heavy metals, no jawbone infections, then a diet conducive to zero acne is probably the ticket I think. So yes, I agree that the diet and acne role is pretty huge--especially if those other factors mentioned above are not present.

Regarding the miconazole, this is an interesting question, because from what I could tell, it's only been tested for hair on animals with fungal issues and the results seem to work.

Of course the only caution is potential allergy.

For example here are one of the few studies on this stuff in animals, but note that many of them also use chlorhexidine which is an anti-septic, bactericidal.

Vet Dermatol. 2006 Feb;17(1):63-9.
Generalized alopecic and cystic dermatosis in a cat: a counterpart to the hairless mouse phenotype or a unique congenital dermatosis?

Neuber AE, Van Den Broek AH, Rhind SM, Hill PB, Thoday KL.

The University of Edinburgh, Dermatology Unit, Division of Veterinary Clinical Studies , Roslin, Midlothian, EH25 9Rg, Scotland, UK.

A 2-year-old, male neutered, domestic semi-long-haired cat was presented with a 1.5-year history of progressive, initially nonpruritic alopecia and malodorous greasy exudate affecting the distal extremities, trunk and neck but sparing the head and tail. The extensive alopecia and 'seborrhoea' were associated with severe thickening of the skin and fold formation on the dorsal head and distal extremities as well as the lateral thorax and abdomen. The hair was easily epilated, numerous milia were seen on the ventral abdomen and the caudal and lateral thighs, and mild paronychia was present. Histopathological examination of skin biopsies revealed marked cystic dilation of hair follicles and sebaceous glands with follicular hypoplasia, infundibular hyperkeratosis and variable associated inflammation. Systemic glucocorticoid therapy in combination with topical washes with chlorhexidine and miconazole resulted in a marked improvement and some hair regrowth, but the cat was subsequently lost to follow-up. The dermatosis resembles a number of conditions in other species, but it is not clear whether it is a counterpart to the hairless mutant mouse or is a unique dermatosis.

misterE, I hope it works out well, it's certainly cheap enough.

CausticSymmetry wrote:misterE - If stress is a non-issue, no pervasive heavy metals, no jawbone infections, then a diet conducive to zero acne is probably the ticket I think.

I do get stressed every non and then, I do probably have heavy-metal accumulation because I use to eat fish like crazy before I knew better and I have no jawbone infections (that I know of).

CausticSymmetry wrote:
Generalized alopecic and cystic dermatosis in a cat: a counterpart to the hairless mouse phenotype or a unique congenital dermatosis?

Interesting study CS, thanks. But it is a damn shame that the cat died as a result of the study.

CausticSymmetry wrote:
misterE, I hope it works out well, it's certainly cheap enough.

Yeah, defiantly cheap and easy to obtain, I have to say that I was kinda worried about all the other chemicals in it causes inflammation or causing my hair to start shedding, but it didn't! Anyway CS you have to admit, it's a pretty clever idea right?

CS, you don't recommended nizoral, but you don't recommend against it do you? It's not like fin where there may be potential long term problems right?

I'm hoping to get niz cream or foam and use a non sls shampoo. Repeating a question asked earlier in the thread, is sodium cocoyl sulfate okay for hair loss?

tooyoung - Keto is a drug, and Lithium is superior to it. However, if sebum is a bad issue and lithium is not well tolerated, then keto might be worth a try.

Another than that, wouldn't bother with it.

sodium cocoyl sulfate is not quite as bad as other SLS's, but I'm not sure how safe it is.

CS,

I thought this info might be of some help regarding acne and hair loss. When I first bought the rife machine I ran the hair loss scripts. Hair loss was taken care of. However, even though brewers yeast is probably the best was to suppress pimples I would still developing the occasional pimple. It wasn't until I ran these two scripts for Staphylococcus aureus and Staphylococcus Epidermidisis is when I've never had another pimple except for when I'm going through a severe heavy metal detox

http://curezone.com/blogs/fm.asp?i=1584274#i

http://curezone.com/blogs/fm.asp?i=1532388#i

Figured you might be interested in this info.

hope this helps

jdp701 - This is very interesting, thank you!

CS, does lithium inhibit DHT as keto might?

You guys could just buy ketoconozoale and spironoloctane in pill form, crush it up, and add it to a shampoo like this one:
http://www.iherb.com/Aubrey-Organics-J-A-Y-Desert-Herb-Revitalizing-Shampoo-Dry-Damaged-11-fl-oz-325-ml/7559?at=0

Don't know if I want to use spiro, a lot of people claim sexual sides even from topical use. Is there anything I can use alongside ketoconazole to make it more effective?