Going to give Minoxidil a shot

Since giving CS' regimen a shot, all of my inflammation has grounded to a complete halt, but I'm going to experiment with some minox to try and kick start follicles back into the anagen phase also. I know it's got lots of negative press on here, but it's the only substance I know of (along with fin) that may trigger the anagen cycle. I also mentioned many times in the past that I got a little regrowth each time I abstained, so I'm going to combine them all and see what a year brings.

If I only succeed in regrowing some sporadic terminals here and there within a year, then I'll conclude it to be a failure, and I think I'll throw the towel in, and perhaps consider a micro graft. But my chief aim here is to only use minox to stimulate follicles into the growth phase. I hear the substance allegedly works better if your sulfur levels are stable, and I've been taking MSM, so let's see what happens next.

Just ordered some Rogaine foam (in date), and Regenepure shampoo. Prob wont do shit, seeing as my lower temples have been bald for about 20 years, but I guess anything is worth a shot it there's a chance of stimulating growth.

May I ask what is CS's regimen which you used?

CampOfDavid wrote:May I ask what is CS's regimen which you used?

I haven't used everything in his regimen, just the main things suggested on his page + MSM powder.

But here is his regimen: http://www.immortalhair.org/mpb-regimen

Hi Xenon - I have some minoxidil alternatives here:

Minoxidil can derange collagen.

http://www.immortalhair.org/apps/blog/show/43765353-natural-minoxidil-alternatives

Thanks CS. Is this what you used to trigger your follicles back into anagen, or was it strictly abiding by your complete regimen that did this? Controlling inflammation is essential for stopping further loss, as we know, but the main prob for me is reactivating dormant follicles en masse. I read that the follicle has a healthy supply of krt-15 stem cells, it's just that something is preventing them from maturing into CD34+ / 200 progenitors. It definitely seems to me that there is a certain cytokine that programs them to stop doing this because hair only stops growing after repeated episodes of inflammation. If there's no inflammation, then there's no loss, YET even though inflammation has been a non factor throughout the right temple for a long time, I'm seeing no regrowth there. This is why I wonder if stopping inflammation in itself is not enough to regenerate long dormant follicles.

Thoughts?

Most likely that is the problem (depletion of CD34+ & CD200 variety). Or if one reaches the differentiation of hair follicle bulge cells into sebocytes.

In the last 20 years I am convinced that the primary cause (in addition to structural issues) is air pollution.
Those progenitor cells are impervious in those with non-MPB, but we "lucky ones" are not.

So there are ways to resolve this to an extent (sometimes remarkably).

Interesting... care to elaborate on this polluted air issue? Do you think this works in a similar way to bronchial asthma, whereby the CRTH2 receptor is highly sensitive to airborne allergens, thereby experiencing an inflammatory response? Yet instead of the bronchial airways inflaming, it happens within follicles of the scalp (in those with MPB genetics).

I had a very bad experience with this substance. If you notice hair loss in areas that ordinarily should not be losing hair, stop using the drug immediately. I experimented with this drug early on in my hair loss journey. I'd fallen into NW2 and hopped on this immediately. The sections of hair to the side that sort of frame the face if that makes sense... like, the hair that people who wear toupees tend to not have that is a giveaway their hair is fake... well, that vanished, and my vertex was taking a hit, too. In fact, entire clumps of hair were falling out overnight. I kept hearing that this is the shedding phase, but when my natural bright blonde hair began turning a dark grayish dead looking hue, I knew something was wrong.

I quit the drug after 2-3 months of usage, and large sections of hair quickly began to regrow. My head looked like a chia pet, and it's almost like the stuff had suffocated my follicles. Fastforward many months later when I'd fallen into NW4 territory, and surprisingly enough, my vertex and those side portions were strong, and intact, even with such an advanced level of hair loss. The minoxidil had somehow caused hair loss in areas I never should've lost.

But, at the end of the day its like fin. Some people get burned, others do great on the substance. Hope it works out for you if you decide to go through with it.

Ah, I think I'll just send it back and get a refund, and instead opt for the natural Minox alternatives suggested by CS. I really can't be dealing with any sheds TBH.

Xenon wrote:Ah, I think I'll just send it back and get a refund, and instead opt for the natural Minox alternatives suggested by CS. I really can't be dealing with any sheds TBH.

As CS posted regarding the use of rosemary.
I´m juicing it out fresh then applying it directly on my scalp, and just moistening my hair first with either coconut/pumpkin seed oil.

Sage 1 wrote:

Xenon wrote:Ah, I think I'll just send it back and get a refund, and instead opt for the natural Minox alternatives suggested by CS. I really can't be dealing with any sheds TBH.

As CS posted regarding the use of rosemary.
I´m juicing it out fresh then applying it directly on my scalp, and just moistening my hair first with either coconut/pumpkin seed oil.

So you actually started to see regrowth after using this? I checked another site out that recommends using rosemary with other essential oils. TBH I'm willing to give anything a shot at this point, so long as it really can kick start the follicles back into the anagen cycle, and by that I mean see the majority of follicles regenerating, and not just some sporadic terminals popping up every 6 months or so. If I can't achieve such results, then I really don't want to waste my time on it.

Sage 1 wrote:

Xenon wrote:Ah, I think I'll just send it back and get a refund, and instead opt for the natural Minox alternatives suggested by CS. I really can't be dealing with any sheds TBH.

As CS posted regarding the use of rosemary.
I´m juicing it out fresh then applying it directly on my scalp, and just moistening my hair first with either coconut/pumpkin seed oil.

I've read some studies on Rosemary too. Been doing an olive oil / rosemary topical for the last month or two, I'd say it seems to be helping. Just tip a little bit of olive oil onto my head, massage in, followed by 6-7 drops of Rosemary, second massage. Leave for 20-30 mins. Shower out with some shampoo. Good thing is that combo doesn't drip everywhere so it's a simple, clean process

No way I'd touch minox, rather go bald.

I agree with Columbo on rather going bald than touching that stuff. Advise against it.

OK, guys, I've taken your advices on board. I did actually use a product similar to minox when I was about 20, it was called Formula 101. It brought back some regrowth but the quality of hair was crappy. After I stopped using it, I suffered a bad shed at the vertex and temples, but I was unsure if this was related to this topical or the tremendous stress I went through at the same time. The hair did thicken up again after a few weeks though, but the thinning was an alarming sight, esp for a 20 year old. But seeing as you guys have experienced the same sides from Minox, then it's likely that Formula 101 stuff was responsible for my shedding.

Anyways, I found some info which might possibly explain why krt-15 stem cells within the bulge are failing to mature into progenitors. The study basically says that cells which experience repeated bouts of inflammation are at risk of becoming cancerous so a tumor suppressor gene is activated which stops krt-15 cells from maturing into progenitors. Whether this tumor suppressor gene is pertinent to MPB or not, I think it's very interesting because krt-15 stem cells ARE failing to mature into progenitors, and something is sure causing this to happen.

Collectively, our data identify for the first time that hair
follicle stem cells are susceptible to age-associated changes
that may contribute to aging phenotypes. As has been
described for other stem cell populations (Rossi et al.
2005), these cells increase significantly in number but
decrease in functional capacity with normal aging, suggesting
that the mechanisms we identify here may also be
general mediators of stem cell aging in other tissues. That
these cells retain stem-like properties while simultaneously
being repressed by the external environment
implies a degree of reversibility, which we show is partially
feasible with chemical compounds. Whether this is possible
in other stem cell populations remains to be seen, but
studies suggest that this is likely (Conboy et al. 2005; Boyle
et al. 2007; Pan et al. 2007; Villeda et al. 2011).
Conceptually, the biological function behind such an
inhibition of stem cell function remains intriguing. Given
that age is a primary determinant of tumor initiation and
that this Krt-15 stem cell population was recently identified
as a target cell of origin in squamous cell carcinoma
(Keyes et al. 2011; Lapouge et al. 2011; White et al. 2011),
the expansion of this population during aging could significantly
increase the chance of malignant transformation—
through either up-regulation of stem cell-maintaining
proto-oncogene signaling, as demonstrated here, or simply
increased opportunities for mutation. Certainly, as inflammation
has long been linked to tumor progression,
this suggests that stem cell impairment and, consequently,
tissue aging may ultimately be the result of tumor-suppressive
mechanisms. Our observation of increased phosphoStat3
signaling throughout the aging epidermis and within
the stem cell population, coupled with evidence that hyperactivated
Stat3 can drive tumor progression (Bromberg et al.
1999; Demaria et al. 2012), provides a rationale for the
engagement of this suppressive phenotype, particularly
within vulnerable stem cell populations. Further detailed
analyses of this aging stem cell population are
needed to assess whether these cells might be primed for
tumor initiation by age-associated inflammation as well
as to uncover cell-intrinsic mechanisms likely contributing
to the aging process.

Full pdf:

http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/26/19/2144.full.pdf

Isn't this all related to epigenetics? "Suppressing cancer" is just an epigenetic mechanism. It's known that these tumour suppressor genes can be silenced by using DNA methylation and histone modifications.

Xenon wrote:

Sage 1 wrote:

Xenon wrote:Ah, I think I'll just send it back and get a refund, and instead opt for the natural Minox alternatives suggested by CS. I really can't be dealing with any sheds TBH.

As CS posted regarding the use of rosemary.
I´m juicing it out fresh then applying it directly on my scalp, and just moistening my hair first with either coconut/pumpkin seed oil.

So you actually started to see regrowth after using this? I checked another site out that recommends using rosemary with other essential oils. TBH I'm willing to give anything a shot at this point, so long as it really can kick start the follicles back into the anagen cycle, and by that I mean see the majority of follicles regenerating, and not just some sporadic terminals popping up every 6 months or so. If I can't achieve such results, then I really don't want to waste my time on it.

As i argued on my thread "My green tea, coconut and green juicing progress" i took the benefit to simplify it.
It took a while to realize that all my green juice intake, could also be used on my scalp to get the so called small white hairs go terminal.

The topical is a good start but it lacks major nutrients.
What i do is moist my hair first either coconut/ pumpkin seed oil, and then i juice out fresh coriander, rosemary with a small slice of ginger, and massage it on my scalp.

Mechanotransduction wrote:Isn't this all related to epigenetics? "Suppressing cancer" is just an epigenetic mechanism. It's known that these tumour suppressor genes can be silenced by using DNA methylation and histone modifications.

Any links to the methyl groups used to switch off these genes? I know toxins and stress can affect DNA methylation, but it sure seems that androgens (specifically DHT) activate a gene that causes exaggerated immunoreactivity in follicles. We know that DHT inhibitors cause hair thickening and regrowth in a number of MPB cases - esp, when caught in it's infancy, so this might suggest that the primary baldness gene is silenced in the absence of DHT. BUT in advanced cases of pattern baldness DHT inhibitors seem to be ineffective in regrowing hair, and this might be due to activation of a secondary gene which, thus, programs stem cells to stop maturing into progenitors. So, I guess my point is, even if a tumor suppressing gene was silenced, and follicles began to regenerate, they'd still be susceptible to immune attack unless we kept DHT levels to a minimum.

good luck X

So what are our latest thoughts on minoxidil alternatives? The original link that CS posted is dead, perhaps it could be reposted? I had some regrowth about 10 years with propecia/minoxidil, but I've gotten nothing the past 6 months with just minoxidil alone. I'm thinking about just throwing the rest in the trash and replacing it with rosemary and/or castor oil.