how to reduce salivary DHT (CS)

Hi everyone... In Brian's article http://longevitypost.com/stop-fearing-testosterone-dht/ he stated that:

"Note that while serum (blood levels) of DHT are inversely correlated with hair loss, salivary DHT is directly correlated."

I've been on TRT (testosterone) for a few years, as well as Avodart. My serum DHT is low (10, a reference range of 30-80). Yet, my Salivary DHT is extremely high (251, a reference range of 22-72).

So a couple of questions:

1. If I'm on Avodart, why would by salivary DHT be so high? Does it only work on on Serum levels? I don't understand this.

2. How would one reduce Salivary DHT?

Thanks very much for your help

PS - Also, my Androstenedione levels were super high (512, a reference ranges of 151-350)... any way to reduce this?

why are you on TRT?

sanderson wrote:why are you on TRT?

I've been an athlete my entire life. Working out, in fitness magazines, eating well, no alcohol, no drugs, etc... As I got older, everything became harder to do. Which is fine. But one day I just noticed I was very apathetic about life, I was getting weaker, fatter, no "drive" ... about life or sex.

So I took a blood test and my testosterone levels were low/normal... So we decide to give testosterone a try to see how I'd feel and things improved, a better quality of life.

And for the past 12-16 months, I've been taking most of the supplements suggested at
http://www.immortalhair.org/mpbregimen.htm

SamIam - Low T is usually a symptom of inflammation. Unfortunately, taking testosterone isn't the best way to bring it up, it just creates more problems. There's is a connection between toxicity (inflammation) and androgen sensitivity. Would recommend to dump the TRT and raise it naturally.

CausticSymmetry wrote:SamIam - Would recommend to dump the TRT and raise it naturally.

If that is the case, then there's nothing else I can do with my life since I've been on a very anti-inflammatory diet for a long time. Not to mention all the supplements I take to reduce inflammation.

But I will certainly look deeper into this, thank you.

However, if you don't mind helping me with the original questions - why would salivary DHT be so high, if on Avodart? And, what can lower Salivary DHT?

I'm still not understanding why there is a massive discrepancy and inverse between the serum and salivary DHT levels.

I also don't understand why salivary DHT is the problem for hair loss and not serum? I know many guys who have low T, high serum DHT and losing hair.

Thank you very much.

It's true that many who are losing hair have low T, however taking TRT is a fast way to lose hair and boost salivary DHT.

There's other ways to boost testosterone. Taking TRT is risky.

CausticSymmetry wrote:It's true that many who are losing hair have low T, however taking TRT is a fast way to lose hair and boost salivary DHT.

There's other ways to boost testosterone. Taking TRT is risky.

Wich is the best way to reduce salivary DHT naturally?

maybe I shouldn't have posted I was on TRT, I wish I hadn't ... because the focus went to that, rather than the DHT question.

I just wanted to better understand why serum and salivary DHT would be so different? And why Salivary DHT is the REAL problem for hair loss and not serum? And finally, how to naturally reduce salivary DHT.

The problem is, either TRT or the dutasteride could be the problem.

okay, let's pull back. Forget about me. I'm out...

Based on your article (let's focus on that only), why is salivary DHT the REAL problem for hair loss and not serum? You've always been a very forward thinking person and thus, ahead of the "experts".

Normally I would say "oh, he's crazy... why is everyone always testing serum then?!! Why do the 5a inhibitors work for many people, if serum is NOT really the problem?"

However, because it's YOU, I don't think that. I know you're right on the money so many times... so, that's why I'm just curious as to the differences between serum vs saliva.

So, that's one main question.

Secondly, for a "regular" person not on TRT or anything else... who has elevated salivary, but NOT serum DHT, how would you lower the salivary DHT... since that seems to be the main problem associated with hair loss, triggering inflammation, etc.

Thank you

SamIam wrote:okay, let's pull back. Forget about me. I'm out...

Based on your article (let's focus on that only), why is salivary DHT the REAL problem for hair loss and not serum? You've always been a very forward thinking person and thus, ahead of the "experts".

Normally I would say "oh, he's crazy... why is everyone always testing serum then?!! Why do the 5a inhibitors work for many people, if serum is NOT really the problem?"

However, because it's YOU, I don't think that. I know you're right on the money so many times... so, that's why I'm just curious as to the differences between serum vs saliva.

So, that's one main question.

Secondly, for a "regular" person not on TRT or anything else... who has elevated salivary, but NOT serum DHT, how would you lower the salivary DHT... since that seems to be the main problem associated with hair loss, triggering inflammation, etc.

Thank you

The most common reason is low SHBG. Low SHBG usually occurs in the earlier ages. The more unbound T (from a low SHBG), the more DHT can effect local tissues.

My earlier comments about the dutasteride/Avodart and the TRT were of concern about these methods skipping the real cause of the problem...probably a thyroid problem.

At the center of a low SHBG is usually a lower level of thyroid hormone synthesis.

TRT is basically a poison and doctors who prescribe it are lazy hacks. It will atrophy your testicles, greatly decrease spermatogenesis and *completely* shut down testosterone production.

Those testicular cells will take a long time to regenerate without countering the TRT with HCG for instance, like a cat chasing its own tail. In other words, you will become dependent on TRT for basic function. Doctors love when that happens, cause it means a steady supply of cashcow money.

FYI regenerating Leydig cells becomes harder with age, even with HCG.

Best way is to let your body decide its own hormonal profile with pregnenolone or getting your liver healthy enough to properly process cholesterol. There's no such thing as a free lunch

DHT also isn't the enemy if you care are about proper maturation and development. When properly regulated, both DHT and endogenous T are what makes you into a man. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news and social responsibility.

Sorry for seeming so bombastic, but I have reached the breaking point with a dumbed-down medicine in this mostly unheralded information age. Doctors want to ignore that this info even exists.

SamIam wrote:

sanderson wrote:why are you on TRT?

I've been an athlete my entire life. Working out, in fitness magazines, eating well, no alcohol, no drugs, etc... As I got older, everything became harder to do. Which is fine. But one day I just noticed I was very apathetic about life, I was getting weaker, fatter, no "drive" ... about life or sex.

Congrats on your career. The answer you are looking for is IF/ketogenesis and working both hard and smart. If anything it has become easier with age for me.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtBw4N4-EiaAqK9TvZGlGDw

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmMJ2ioWma0SpD9N21OiuXA

CausticSymmetry wrote:The most common reason is low SHBG. Low SHBG usually occurs in the earlier ages. The more unbound T (from a low SHBG), the more DHT can effect local tissues.

My earlier comments about the dutasteride/Avodart and the TRT were of concern about these methods skipping the real cause of the problem...probably a thyroid problem.

At the center of a low SHBG is usually a lower level of thyroid hormone synthesis.

Thank you, this makes sense. Yes, I do have low/normal SHBG. However, isn't that a good thing? ... in that, there's now more testosterone available to do what testosterone does - drive, muscle, mood, fat loss, etc.?

Isn't that ultimately the goal - not to just have higher testosterone, but more bio-available testosterone?

I mean, what's the point if having higher testosterone naturally (forget exogenous), if it is all tied up?... or, am I missing something with the endocrine system?

And if "low SHBG occurs in the earlier ages", why are people losing their hair LATER in life, when there's less total and free testosterone available? Shouldn't the opposite be happening, young people with more total and free testosterone?

However, this still goes back to my original question - why the inverse with serum vs salivary DHT? Why did your article say that Salivary DHT is the main problem and not serum? And why is salivary DHT high, even with the avodart... when serum is so low?

I certainly understand why low SHBG would have more free testosterone to convert to DHT. However, that's where the Avodart comes into play. Thus, low serum DHT. ... But, why such high Salivary DHT?

This is the point I keep going back to.

I'm asking simply from a learning point of view. I've learned a LOT from this site and from you and I'm deeply appreciative.

However, this part I'm still totally confused about.

There is another thing I'm confused about - but, I'll leave that for another thread. =)

Thanks again.

While I agree SHBG is way more implicated in hair loss than DHT, I'm not buying it as a smoking gun either. And I don't buy the fact science can intuitively regulate the complexities of sex hormones on the fly with lab chemicals.

Liver disease or hepatic steatosis, high body fat in general, poor cholesterol conversion, poor metabolism, chronic inflammation, insulin sensitivity, thyroxine, growth hormone and IGF-1 status will all significantly affect SHBG. If you are trying to control one single variable in the short-term, you are going to long-term fail in older age.

You don't want SHBG too high or low. Same goes for cholesterol. I guess it's hard to admit regulation and moderation is the real key to everything health.

I like the idea of lowering body fat and insulin sensitivity with progressive overload. For low test sometimes it can even be as simple as increasing vitamin D3 (a hormone in itself) status or simply getting more sun. I'd like to say hormone replacement would be the last resort, but it's not even that for me.