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Lignans & Free T

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Lignans & Free T Empty Lignans & Free T

Post  EIC on Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:29 am

Fellas,

We know that lignans increase SHBG. SHBG has an extremely high affinity for testosterone over estrogen. Would not increasing SHBG therefore cause a significant decrease in free (active) testosterone with only a minimal decrease in active estrogens? What am I missing here.

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Post  CausticSymmetry on Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:43 pm

EIC - The following quote is taken from http://www.npicenter.com/anm/templates/newsATemp.aspx?articleid=15316&zoneid=9

"Enterolactone binds weakly to the estrogen receptors, and as a weak estrogen, appears to block overt estrogen activity in specific selected tissues. In addition, enterolactone stimulates the synthesis and circulating levels of a biochemical called sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). Through this activity, enterolactone appears to reduce the free bioavailable pool of circulating estrogen, thereby reducing estrogen penetration in tissues and diminishing risk for adverse estrogen balance. Third, there is evidence that enterolactone may also inhibit biosynthesis of estrogen by blocking aromatase, a key enzyme in biosynthesis of estradiol. Collectively through multiple mechanisms of action, lignans appear to positively influence optimal estrogen balance in the body."
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Post  Misirlou on Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:56 pm

Does it still increase the levels of free testosterone and also, in the long run, the amount of DHT ?

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Post  EIC on Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:43 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:EIC - The following quote is taken from http://www.npicenter.com/anm/templates/newsATemp.aspx?articleid=15316&zoneid=9

"Enterolactone binds weakly to the estrogen receptors, and as a weak estrogen, appears to block overt estrogen activity in specific selected tissues. In addition, enterolactone stimulates the synthesis and circulating levels of a biochemical called sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). Through this activity, enterolactone appears to reduce the free bioavailable pool of circulating estrogen, thereby reducing estrogen penetration in tissues and diminishing risk for adverse estrogen balance. Third, there is evidence that enterolactone may also inhibit biosynthesis of estrogen by blocking aromatase, a key enzyme in biosynthesis of estradiol. Collectively through multiple mechanisms of action, lignans appear to positively influence optimal estrogen balance in the body."

But the sentence beforehand refers specifically to breast cancer and I wonder if the comments that follow--the comments you quoted--should not be read in the context of a woman, for whom increased levels of SHBG most certainly would reduce levels of active estrogen. But the consensus is that SHBG has a much higher affinity for T than E and men have T:E ratios of 500:1. Thus, it seems to me that in a man consumption of lignans would reduce conversion of T to E by reducing aromatase, but would also decrease the amount of free testosterone, which is exactly what we don't want to do. This is like taking one step forward (inhibiting aromatase) and at least one step back (binding additional T).

If true, then it seems that a better mechanism would be to take aromatase inhibitors (AIs) that will not increase SHBG. Something like chrysin and resveratrol may fill the bill here, though both seem to have poor bioavailability when taken orally. This is why I think Primordial Performance was/is on the money with Dermacrine Sustain and Sustain Alpha (the latter of which lacks chrysin).

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Post  nidhogge on Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:45 am

Chrysin is horrendous oral--worthless even. In Vitro it showed lots of promise, but there has never been an effective in vivo study. Arguments can be made for transdermal Chrysin, and I'd be willing to put my money on it--but the studies aren't there yet.

I use Sustain Alpha, or rather, have been for a couple weeks now. Good stuff, leaves the skin in amazing condition as well.

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Post  EIC on Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:47 am

nidhogge wrote:Chrysin is horrendous oral--worthless even. In Vitro it showed lots of promise, but there has never been an effective in vivo study. Arguments can be made for transdermal Chrysin, and I'd be willing to put my money on it--but the studies aren't there yet.

I use Sustain Alpha, or rather, have been for a couple weeks now. Good stuff, leaves the skin in amazing condition as well.

Glad to hear it. I used Derm. Sustain in the past and it was awesome. I could tell you some stories but they may be TMI. What a Face

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Post  nidhogge on Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:33 am

I'd be interested in hearing them man--go for it! We share just about everything around here anyway. Wink

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Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:00 am

There has been a trend where studies on women greatly out numbered men due to government sponsorship. That's trend is starting to change, but nevertheless it is sometimes difficult to provide adequate information on male concerning plants and hormone metabolism.

Fortunately there is a study that was done to evaluate the effects that enterolactone consumption has on men and steroid health.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/11/2680

Enterolactone was found to be significantly and positively associated with plasma androgen concentrations. This is not a surprise since plenty of literature suggests Enterolactone (which Spruce Lignans are a source of) improves cardiovascular function, diabetes, etc. These are all conditions that benefit from more androgens.

Of course at the same time, Spruce lignans reduce aromatase as well and reducing harmful estrogens out of circulation.
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Post  EIC on Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:56 am

From your study:

Although phytoestrogens were reported to stimulate SHBG concentrations (1215), we did not observe any association between any of the phytoestrogens and SHBG concentrations in this study. This null finding is unlikely to be due to the low phytoestrogen exposure in our population because 2 previous cross-sectional studies, which included high soy consumers, also did not find any association between soy intake and SHBG concentrations in men (26,27). Our finding adds to the body of evidence supporting a lack of association between phytoestrogen exposure and SHBG concentrations in men.

This suggests that lignans do not increase SHBG in men after all. But they do inhibit aromatase. I have also seen evidence that lignans, like DIM, help convert the potent forms of estrogen to the benign types. I'm starting to see the picture now.

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Lignans & Free T Empty PM (Pueraria Mirifica) and SHBG, etc

Post  2560 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:34 am

IH, on a similar note on ligands, regarding PM, because PM is thought to be considerably stronger
than other phytoestrogens in receptor binding and selective action, does PM increase SHBG,
once again reducing Free T ?, also does it reduce aromatase ? and last, an article recently posted
on your old forum indicated that not only does it(PM) agressively compete for estrogen receptors,
displacing estradiol, but it supposedly competes or displaces DHT that is apparently attached to
androgen receptors - Could that be true ? thanks as usual for your thoughts on the matter.

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Post  CausticSymmetry on Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:06 am

2560 - Pueraria mirifica contains miroestrol, which is the positive estrogen modulator.

Unlike other "phytoestrogens," miroestrol is quite different from others such as lignans and isoflavones. Miroestrol is much more powerful, can regulate the amount of estrogen is needs by adding or subtracting away.

So rather than displacing estrogens, which is what Enterolactone precursors do, such as 7-HMR, Pueraria mirifica regulates estrogen.

The studies on it are quite interesting so far and will keep tabs on it as they come out. Nidhogge has been using it. I've tried another form of kudzu in the past, which did not have the miroestrol in it. I've heart one other person who had positive results from trying it. From abroad in Thailand is where the initial encouraging reports came out.

All species of Kudzu are anti-aromatase, and are consider the most powerful of aromatase inhibitors.
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