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Post  duel_black Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:15 am

Hi all -

Long time lurker, first time poster. I appreciate this awesome site, and I am mostly following The Natural's reg.

Anyway. 27 ish years ago I had a root canal done on my front upper tooth. 15 years ago (1996) the tooth was brown enough to warrent a crown. The crowning dentist shaved down the brown dead tooth and installed a porcelain crown.

Last night the brown dead tooth - that the crown was placed on top of - broke close to the gum. I saw my General Dentist today. Here is what he said:

1. He can Re-Root Canal it and fill it with a non metal substance. Then we can put the crown back on. And we'll probably get another 5 to 10 years out of that.

2. I mentioned I may want to just look into getting a Zirconia implant.

What is the best approach from a health standpoint?

What is the good way to find a high quality metal free implant specialist?

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt

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Post  dreft Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:52 pm

According to Dr. Hal Huggins, the best approach from a health standpoint is to extract the tooth (by a good holistic dentist that also removes the periodontal ligament + cleans the area) and to use a bridge or a partial (implants of any kind are not recommended). But for a front tooth, this is not very practical.

Another method would be to treat the root canal holistically: http://www.healthyrootcanal.org/video.html. I don't know if this works with old root canals.

What your dentist wants to do, "fill it with a non metal substance" (possibly gutta-percha) is probably the worst approach from a health standpoint.


So you had a root canal for 27 years. As you know, holistic dentists claim root canals are toxic. Do you have any health problems that you can associate with your root canal?

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Post  duel_black Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:22 am

mihai wrote:
So you had a root canal for 27 years. As you know, holistic dentists claim root canals are toxic. Do you have any health problems that you can associate with your root canal?

My hair is thinner on top. If you've seen those before and after pictures of Matthew Mconaughey - the one's questioning if he got transplants - my hair represents the before picture. I am 43 years hold. So 3 years ago I started doing Tom Hagerty's scalp exercises and a few other holistic things. And this year I started the Naturals Regiman. My hair is holding steady. And some possible miniature hair regrowth (it could have always been there I just look closely these days)

Other than that my health, physical and mental, is top notch. I wouldn't have even thought about the root canal as a potential issue if it wasn't for this site. I am grateful for that and the opportunity to research.

Unfortunately in my case it seems like a choice of keep dead tooth or do implant. Leaning more towards implant being healthier.

A bridge or partial doesn't seem like a good solution since we're talking about the very front upper teeth.


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Post  CausticSymmetry Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:35 am

Anytime there is an implant placed into bone, it will create an autoimmune disease, it is only a matter of how bad and when.

This is also from Dr. Hal Huggins.


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Post  duel_black Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:13 am

CausticSymmetry wrote:Anytime there is an implant placed into bone, it will create an autoimmune disease, it is only a matter of how bad and when.

This is also from Dr. Hal Huggins.


The re-root canal route entails actually creating a post with the filler that the crown can be atttached to. The dead tooth snapped close to the gum.

If that post is a not metal/non toxic material, do you feel this may be a better alternative than an implant?

I would only get about another 5 to 10 years out of that route. But by that time more advances may be made with implant technology.

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Post  dreft Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:07 am

There could also be the regrow teeth from stem cells option in the future (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/04/prweb5258064.htm). Might be worth waiting for another 5 years, who knows, maybe it will come true?...Especially in your case, with no health issues whatsoever (except hair loss). If it's not gonna happen, you could always get the implant in the future whenever you decide. What I am saying is: think carefully...once you extract the tooth, it is forever.

Although if they can't regrow hair follicules, I assume teeth should be even more difficult, so...Anybody actually knows something sure about this "regrowing teeth from stem cells" business?


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Post  duel_black Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:57 am

Stem cell regrowth would be awesome. But yeah like hair, I imagine political issues will keep this from coming to market anytime soon. I've made the choice and found my specialist. I am going with a Zirconia Implant somewhere around Sep 15th.

It's funny this choice is a lot like the hair choice: Hair transplants or natural? With hair natural is perfect for me. I cannot see that working with a missing very front upper tooth. There are also unhealthy gum, bone and jaw effects from just yanking the tooth and going with partials.

At this stage metal-free implants in my context seems like the best option.

Unfortunately I will have leakage for sure until the old tooth is extracted in two weeks. Hopefully not severe leakage. I am not sure Kombucha will help but I am going to drink tons. That and maybe yogurt. Anything with good bacteria to fight the bad.

Any suggestions on fighting root canal leakage bacteria naturally?

Thanks
~Matt


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Post  dreft Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:27 am

duel_black wrote:
It's funny this choice is a lot like the hair choice: Hair transplants or natural? With hair natural is perfect for me. I cannot see that working with a missing very front upper tooth. There are also unhealthy gum, bone and jaw effects from just yanking the tooth and going with partials.
The difference between hair and dental implants would be from a health standpoint. Hair transplant won't give you any problems, dental (into bone) implants will. But for you (a front tooth) it really seems to be the best option. I also have root canals and I think I will end up doing the same thing (zirconia implant) in the end. After you will get it done, please share your experience with the people on this forum.

duel_black wrote:
Any suggestions on fighting root canal leakage bacteria naturally?

Someone on this forum (don't remember the exact post, please use the search engine) posted something about a zapper, an electronic device that can kill all sorts of bacteria. I don't know if it really works or not.

Root canals are supposed to produce free radicals (very interesting article here, if you are not familiar with the subject: http://healthyfixx.com/37/electron-depletion-the-root-of-all-disease). It is known that Vit C donates electrons, so in theory, it should eliminate/reduce the free radicals delivered into the body by root canals. What I would like to know is how much vit C one needs in order to be effective against free radicals from root canals...

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Post  CausticSymmetry Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:53 am

I should clear up two misconceptions here right way.

(1) Anything (including non-metals) implanted into bone will cause an autoimmune disease. That includes Zirconium.

(2) It does not matter how powerful a root canal is sterilized, the infection is often spread to the bone via the apex of the infected tooth, therefore, a hypothetical sterilization within the tooth itself will not address the problem. The problem is the infection in the jaw bone that has been spread from the infected root canal tooth via the apex.

Zapping the jaw bone will not work, because there is now lysed bacteria which still contain endotoxins, there is no blood supply to invite macrophages to clean it up

The only real way to deal with this is using a partial or a bridge using a biologically compatible material.


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Post  duel_black Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:46 pm

CausticSymmetry wrote:I should clear up two misconceptions here right way.
(1) Anything (including non-metals) implanted into bone will cause an autoimmune disease. That includes Zirconium.

Yep. I am aware of that opinion from Dr. Hal Huggins and some the Holistic Dental Community. It may even be scientific fact. I am not quite sure. And it doesn't matter. If it made sense I'd consider a partial. Then there is the other scientific fact of the bone weakening from partials - because of nothing to preserve bone area. And the pouty sunken in look, and other gum issues that arise from this approach. So there are issues no matter which route is taken. Though I wonder why they can't just do a bone graph underneath a partial job. Hmm. If it wasn't a front tooth the decision may lean towards a partial if they could bone graph underneath.

I was referred to my implant guy from a holistic Dentist who is a Dr. Hal Huggins worshiper. So I've confirmed here, and on their end, that the ideal choice between Root Canal and Zirconia implant is "neither". I am at least glad Mercola is in favor of Zirconia Implants over Titanium implants and root canals.

I do find it strange that the tissue and bone will accept the implant. (Zirconia exceptionally well). But my immune system will reject it. However, it's clear I am not a scientist.

Below is an interview with Dr. Lina Garcia and Dr. Mercola. They're definitely suggesting Zirconia implants over root canals. Dr. Lina Garcia is a Holistic Dentist. Here Dr. Mercola is saying he'd take the Zirconia implant OVER his bridge (A Dr. Huggins Type of Option).

Google: interview_with_dr_lina_garcia_and_dr_joseph_mercola/ I am new so I can't post the link.

There is also the part about the effect of anxiety, worry and well being on health. I am pretty stress free. That could explain why I've had mercury in my mouth for over 25 years (that will go next). A root canal for over 25 years. Possibly infected over the last couple years, and yet I rarely if ever get sick. I have minor hair loss over the last 5 years which still doesn't look that bad. And I am 43. That is my sickness. My decision is made.

One thing I am certain of. Which could be a mental placebo effect from positive thinking: My Immune System ROCKS. I am not saying I can think my way into regrowing a tooth. But I am saying my positive thoughts and disposition absolutely effect my immune system.

I will keep the board posted on my progress. I've been receiving value here for a while. I'd like to contribute back as well.



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Post  leavingsoon Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:39 am

Just joined because i saw your post and i was heading towards getting Zirconia implant because i thought it was the safest option and didnt want to mess with any adjacent healthy teeth (hence a bridge didnt seem like a good option)

i lost a a lower main biting tooth on one side which is affecting my natural bite so desperately need something to correct that imbalance

but i just found this - hope it helps because i now think this is what i will go for - a zirconia inlay bridge

idahonaturaldentist.com/dental-bridge

naturaldentistry.us/1705/the-difference-between-dental-bridges/

if it helps someone great as i know it best to try to avoid later regretting any decisions made now

all the best

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Post  duel_black Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:53 am

leavingsoon wrote:
i lost a a lower main biting tooth on one side which is affecting my natural bite so desperately need something to correct that imbalance
but i just found this - hope it helps because i now think this is what i will go for - a zirconia inlay bridge
idahonaturaldentist.com/dental-bridge
naturaldentistry.us/1705/the-difference-between-dental-bridges/

Those look like great options for biting teeth. Thanks for posting. I'd consider that if it wasn't my front upper tooth. My two front adjacent teeth are in good shape. Also, there is still the part about nothing supporting the surrounding bone of a missing tooth, if an implant is not used, and the implications there. But overall that looks like a very healthy option.

For me, switching gears will be a challenge at this point no matter what. I paid half, impressions were made, and the Zirconia implant is on the way from Germany.

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Post  dreft Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:44 am

duel_black wrote:...Also, there is still the part about nothing supporting the surrounding bone of a missing tooth, if an implant is not used, and the implications there. But overall that looks like a very healthy option.

For me, switching gears will be a challenge at this point no matter what. I paid half, impressions were made, and the Zirconia implant is on the way from Germany.

What part about nothing supporting the surrounding bone of a missing tootha are you talking about?...I have a missing tooth (it naturally fell off about 10 years ago) and I don't know the implications.

Do you have the name/contacts of that clinic in Germany?...I live in Europe and there are no holistic dentist in my country, I was thinking about coming to US for a while (as I wanted to do it as a touris anyway) but I don't think it's a good idea anymore.

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Post  duel_black Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:21 am

mihai wrote:
What part about nothing supporting the surrounding bone of a missing tootha are you talking about?...I have a missing tooth (it naturally fell off about 10 years ago) and I don't know the implications.

In my pros and cons research for partials, dentures, bridges, one con that seemed to consistently come up is that with nothing supporting the surrounding bone of an extracted tooth the jaw bone structure weakens, the gums and teeth shift, and gum related disease can occur. However, it happens over a long period of time. At the most extreme case it results in that sunken in mouth look some have in old age.

mihai wrote:
Do you have the name/contacts of that clinic in Germany?...I live in Europe and there are no holistic dentist in my country, I was thinking about coming to US for a while (as I wanted to do it as a touris anyway) but I don't think it's a good idea anymore.

It is a "Z-Systems" implant. I am having it done in the U.S by Dr. Jay Reznick in Tarzana California. I can literally walk to his office from my home. So I may have lucked out there. He was recommended by one Dr. Huggins worshiper, and by another highly recommended Dentist as well. Dr. Reznick's office is ordering the implant from Germany.

I did find a practice in Costa Rica that got a lot of good online reviews if you're interested.

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Post  duel_black Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:48 am

One cool bridge option for front teeth I came across after looking at leavingsoon's link is called a "Maryland Bridge". The Maryland Bridge can be done with Zirconia these days, and seem to offer the least amount of damage to the adjacent teeth. However, it seems they need to be re-bonded every few years. That could be a pain.

I am going with the implant but I just wanted to throw the Maryland Bridge out there for others whom end up here down the road.


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Post  CausticSymmetry Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:06 am

mihai - If your tooth fell out naturally, then you probably have nothing to worry about. It's only when there is a purposeful extraction, where an infection may occur.


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Post  Espio Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:44 pm

I know I've said my opinion on the root canal issue over and over again, but since nobody is giving the other side of the debate on this issue, I wanted to give my 2 cents:

Yes, there is a slight association with root canals and heart disease and other problems. However, in all the studies I have seen and posted on this forum, this association is no stronger in probability than the association between ANY dental work and heart disease. In other words, the more dental work IN GENERAL you have done, the more likely you are to have heart issues. Even the frequency of scaling is related to heart disease. Furthermore, one of the studies I posted here showed that if you are missing a tooth for any reason, you are more likely to have heart infection than if you have a root canal!!! So according to that study, you're damned if get the root canal and your damned if you get it the thing pulled!!!!

So my opinion, people who have teeth problems are going to have worse overall health and that is going to affect the heart and other organs, naturally.

If this simplistic answer does not explain this cause and effect, then I am also leaning to a theory to where any kind of dental work at all actually CAUSES the problems. Because the people who I know who have perfect teeth, no cavities at all, are the ones who never see a dentist. People like myself who see the dentist once or twice a year and do what the dentist tells us, I am only 27 years old and my gums look as receded as a 80 year old, you can even see the roots on my canines which have especilaly receded. I don't know what to do.

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Post  duel_black Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:55 pm

Espio wrote:I am only 27 years old and my gums look as receded as a 80 year old, you can even see the roots on my canines which have especilaly receded. I don't know what to do.

Your teeth may get better as you age, with some lifestyle tweaks. My teeth and gums were a mess in my twenties. I had receding gums. Slightly swollen. I smoked. I partied. I drank too much coffee. At 43 my teeth and gums are really healthy. This root canal just happens to be a legacy issue from when I was a kid. That and I have 4 very old mercury fillings still hanging around.

Diet/lifestyle changes have affected my teeth a lot, in a good way. The one factor I did not expect was how healthy my gums are after quitting red meat. I still occasionally grab a Burger. Maybe once or twice a year I will hit In N Out for a double double(awesome fast food burger), and the next day I can feel the difference in my gums. Like a film and bacteria that is stuck there for about a week, and my teeth feel slightly loose in the gums. Then after a week or so the gums tighten back up.

These days my diet is somewhat paleo (ish). No breads or pastas. Mostly veggies, some fish and chicken. Lots of raw foods. Kombucha and some other probiotics. For breakfast I've been eating a concoction of raw cacao beans and goji berries for about nine months. I feel great. Also, for about 5 years I've been hooked on Tea Tree Chewing Sticks by Thursday Plantation. They are toothpicks that are infused with Australian Tea Tree oil; which is known for killing bacteria.

I am considering - if I get the mercury fillings removed - to try and let the those teeth just rebuild naturally instead of refilling them. But I will have to research that more.


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Post  dreft Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:32 am

duel_black - Thanks for that info. I will pass on that Costa Rica clinic, but thanks anyway. If you will extract the root canal tooth, can you repeat the "rabbit experiment" done by that dentist 100 years ago?...That looks fishy, I mean why isn't anybody redoing them?...Shouldn't that be the one of the first things to do in order to see if Dr Price was actually right or not?

CausticSymmetry - Thanks, there is no infection indeed, I was worried because at least 3 dentists told me that the adicent teeth will shift and jaw bone structure weakens. Actually, the last dentist I saw a couple of weeks ago said there is not much of a jaw bone (to do an implant even if I wanted to) anymore. Are you aware of Dr. Hal Huggins redoing the rabbit experiments?

Espio - I also think those holistic dentists are exagerating with how toxic a root canal is (I personally know old people in good health with root canals), but I do believe there is definitely toxicity from it. What I hate the most is the fact that all the experts in the world can't come up with some kind of test to actually quantify the damage. Like for example, if one has cancer, there is the possibility to know exactly what it is, in what stage, what kind of bacteria...

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Post  leavingsoon Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:35 am

duel_black wrote:
mihai wrote:
What part about nothing supporting the surrounding bone of a missing tootha are you talking about?...I have a missing tooth (it naturally fell off about 10 years ago) and I don't know the implications.

In my pros and cons research for partials, dentures, bridges, one con that seemed to consistently come up is that with nothing supporting the surrounding bone of an extracted tooth the jaw bone structure weakens, the gums and teeth shift, and gum related disease can occur. However, it happens over a long period of time. At the most extreme case it results in that sunken in mouth look some have in old age.

It is a "Z-Systems" implant. I am having it done in the U.S by Dr. Jay Reznick in Tarzana California. I can literally walk to his office from my home. So I may have lucked out there. He was recommended by one Dr. Huggins worshiper, and by another highly recommended Dentist as well. Dr. Reznick's office is ordering the implant from Germany.

I did find a practice in Costa Rica that got a lot of good online reviews if you're interested.


Hi duel_black

thank you for all information, it really is useful as i am petrified about seeing a dentist and keep putting it off as the more i research i do the more scared i become and put it off as most dental options have some sort of warning

to go into more detail 2 years ago i lost a a lower main biting tooth on one side of my mouth after the filling of that tooth broke and snapped practically all the tooth off. the root is still there which i will have to have removed somehow - i read "a dentist should clean the socket out properly after extracting the tooth" - Cavitation Cleaning i believe it is called.

Then i have to decide if i should go for a metal free Zirconia implant or a zirconia inlay bridge (minimal damage is done to the adjacent teeth).

My mind was set on the implant option but the autoimmune issue just made my heart sink - after having blood tests done recently i was told i had an autoimmune marker (also i have some alopecia so have some small patches of missing hair on my head and couple of places on my body) - i dont know if that is linked to my missing tooth actually

But You then made a very good point about a bridge - "the jaw bone structure weakens, the gums and teeth shift, and gum related disease can occur... At the most extreme case it results in that sunken in mouth look some have in old age"

without trying to sound daft, i have a very strong facial bone structure (people would often say i should be a model) and because of the last two years of my missing tooth, it means i cant chew properly on one side of my face and the result is one side of of face/jaw is visibly smaller (and weaker) than the other side - so again the thought of "jaw bone structure weakens, the gums and teeth shift" really depresses me Sad

im 32 and really dont know what to do. i did actually think that having a bridge wouldnt weaken the jaw as you are strengthening the jaw/bone again by biting?

you seem very knowledgeable -could you please offer some advice as im in the UK and there doesnt seem to be much choice like there is in the US for good holistic dentists

Kind Regards and good luck for the 15th!

PS ive never heard of Z-Systems" implant. does it just mean it is a metal free implant or is it a technique of fitting/designing an implant that is superior?

PPS i have done some research into zapping and will eventually get a zapper as it seems great. There is one zapper that stood out from the rest where the website did a comparison against others. If you are interested let me know

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Post  duel_black Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:43 am

@leavingsoon -

The mind is going to process the data is wants to hear and exclude the data it doesn't want to hear. For example, a couple days ago I contacted the The Huggins people to get a list of Huggins trained dentists in my area. I then looked up every dentist they sent, and all but one Huggin's trained dentist advertised that they do implants. Then you have Dr. Lina Garcia and Dr. Mercola. Dr. Mercola stated in his video interview that he'd choose a Zirconia implant over his Bridge and definitely over any root canal. Dr. Lina Garcia is a holistic dentist. And there are many other holistic dentists that seem in favor of Zirconia implants. However, my mind is also filtering out the videos from CS, because I simply don't want to hear it. That does not mean it's not true.

A bridge does not sound bad in your case. For me an on-lay bridge probably would not work for the most upper front teeth. And a maryland bridge will probably need to be reworked every few years. If it was my biting tooth I probably would not get an implant right away. I'd start off with something else and consider an implant down the road once more data is out on Zirconia. Or who knows what might be out in five years. If you keep your bones strong - perhaps with lots of D3 and a great lifestyle and diet - the surrounding bone issue may not even hit you.

Best of luck.


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Post  dreft Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:16 am

leavingsoon -

"the jaw bone structure weakens, the gums and teeth shift, and gum related disease can occur... At the most extreme case it results in that sunken in mouth look some have in old age" ...That can happen when most of your teeth are missing, not only one (as in your case) and only after two years. I also have a missing tooth since, I believe, 10 years ago, and there is no sign of "sunken in mouth" appearence, don't worry about it. What can actually happen (it did happen to me): the adiacent teeth start to shift and the jaw/gum in that area shrinks.

I found a good (at least it seems to be) holistic dentist in UK that I also plan to visit. http://www.munro-hallclinic.co.uk/ ...I think is the third time I post this link. This forum is filled with good information, unfortunately it doesn't have an organized structure so one could find the info easily (even worse, the Inside search engine doesn't do a good job and the admins don't put the other one, Google, as the default one).

There were other dentists accredited by IAOMT in London, if I remember correctly, look them up on IAOMT's site.
If you visit any of them, please share your experience with us. Thanks

dreft

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Post  leavingsoon Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:32 pm

thank you duel_black and mihai for your response

It's nice to have support and i have taken your advice on board and when i get round to seeing a holistic dentist i will report back.And good luck for the 15th!

duel_black - it is interesting that the Huggins people list dentists who do the implants when they advocate against it. I think zirconia implants are a safe option but the autoimmune thing scared me as i have recently had an autoimmune positive marker when i took blood tests.

mihai - i have known about the Munro-Hall Clinic - i would love to go but the prices adding up are not something i can afford

example
Initial Examination £125
Cavitat Ultrasound Examination full £300
Cavitation Cleaning from £400+
Extractions £250-£350+

apparently there is another highly recommended dentist who gives lectures on cavitations etc
i saw his website before but now it is being updated
Dr. John Roberts
http://www.holistic-dentistry.com

mihai - what country are you in? what sort of dental treatment did you want?



leavingsoon

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Post  dreft Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:57 am

leavingsoon - Yes, the prices are high, this is why I thought about going to US (the dollar-euro exchange certainly favors it), but I don't think that is a good idea anymore. I am in Brussels now (athough not belgian), I need to take care of two old root canals (asymptomatic) with metal crowns + two small amalgam fillings + only God knows what other denture problems I might have Smile
Why would you love to visit them?
They seem good dentists, but I found some bad opinions about them as well: http://orbisvitae.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9072&site_id=1

Do you have the price lists of other holistic dentists in UK (for comparison purposes)?

A list of Britain & Ireland metal-free dentist: http://www.keytoxins.com/helpyourselftohealth/id26.html

There are some in Brussels, but nobody knows anything about them, none of them are members of IAOMT, ...

dreft

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Post  leavingsoon Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:05 am

mihai wrote:leavingsoon - Yes, the prices are high, this is why I thought about going to US (the dollar-euro exchange certainly favors it), but I don't think that is a good idea anymore. I am in Brussels now (athough not belgian), I need to take care of two old root canals (asymptomatic) with metal crowns + two small amalgam fillings + only God knows what other denture problems I might have Smile
Why would you love to visit them?
They seem good dentists, but I found some bad opinions about them as well: http://orbisvitae.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9072&site_id=1

Do you have the price lists of other holistic dentists in UK (for comparison purposes)?

A list of Britain & Ireland metal-free dentist: http://www.keytoxins.com/helpyourselftohealth/id26.html

There are some in Brussels, but nobody knows anything about them, none of them are members of IAOMT, ...

Well there facilities seem great and they have all treatments under one roof and they are very knowledgable it seems - but i guess you are right - there are some negative reviews and when i rang there was no answer and i'm not sure how caring/understanding towards patients they are which is very important to me.

A long time ago i spoke to a nurse at the john roberts practice and she was very friendly. but they are around 2 hours away and because of my fears i didnt get back in touch. Once i get a bit of money together i will definietely give them a call back.

As for prices they just seemed very expensive compared to regular dentists. There are companies here that offer great dental packages with better prices based in hungary/C.Republic where the standard is high but again i dont think they are holistic dentists although im sure there must be some.

leavingsoon

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