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Carbs Necessary for Thyroid?

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Post  nidhogge on Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:36 am

Gibson wrote:nidhogge,
yeah, i concur, which is why I think I conceded my argument. Couple the dietary factors with a far less sedentary lifestyle. Also, less opportunity for food consumption in general.

Exactly. Interesting thing to consider is what kind of weight kids started putting on after arcades began to be phased out and replaced with sit-on-your-ass consoles and multi-player gaming on the PC. Boy, I sure do miss arcades...I'd break fucking sweats in there, hah.

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Post  Joejoebaggins on Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:24 am

Gibson wrote:joejoe,
have you ever seen the products the atkins company was pedaling for meal replacement? pretty much poisonous rubbish. Also, the general interpretation by consumers reflected what i posted.

I'm not sure what got lost in translation but I don't advocate the use of Atkins products or the diet. Low carb doesn't alway mean Atkins.
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Post  Gibson on Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:44 am

joejoe--
just see my first response to you. nothing was lost in translation. i was just pointing out that the low carb association to atkins might have a backlash effect. the second post illuminated why an association to atkins might be so off-putting.

As an aside, the best looking people I know are on plant-based diets (lots of raw) with animal products used in moderation: that's my clarification, so readers don't get the impression that i am a steak and potatoes guy. (I know you and EIC already know that and have a different view on the matter.

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Post  sublime9 on Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:17 am

heh heh.

Dr Atkins looked like really bad to die at such an early age. Whilst the masses have different viewpoints on diet and what best suits humans I think Gibson's assessment is a pretty fair one. Go back 100 years and you reduce meat consumption by over 50% as well as grain consumption by around 70%. Our current food diet paradigm is a very, very recent creation. You also eliminate microwaves, pesticides, herbicides, mass amounts of sugar as well preservatives from the diet. Head back 500 years and meat was a rarity while raw foods as well as soups were the staple for the majority of people. Obviously royalty had access to these types of foods but common folk did not. So step back even further, let's say 2000 years and you are looking at even less cooked food and even more of a plant based diet.

I am not an evolutionist but I have read several books on animal evolution and the evolution of humans. Evolution takes time and I'm not talking the time it takes for Taco Bell drive through folks to make a burrito. So all common humans are descendants of people who lived in Africa between 100,000 and 150,000 years ago. The reality is that we are not much different from our ancestors of so long ago when it was easier to sneak up on a carrot than a rabbit.

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Post  EIC on Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:25 pm

sublime9 wrote:heh heh.

Dr Atkins looked like really bad to die at such an early age. Whilst the masses have different viewpoints on diet and what best suits humans I think Gibson's assessment is a pretty fair one. Go back 100 years and you reduce meat consumption by over 50% as well as grain consumption by around 70%. Our current food diet paradigm is a very, very recent creation. You also eliminate microwaves, pesticides, herbicides, mass amounts of sugar as well preservatives from the diet. Head back 500 years and meat was a rarity while raw foods as well as soups were the staple for the majority of people. Obviously royalty had access to these types of foods but common folk did not. So step back even further, let's say 2000 years and you are looking at even less cooked food and even more of a plant based diet.

I am not an evolutionist but I have read several books on animal evolution and the evolution of humans. Evolution takes time and I'm not talking the time it takes for Taco Bell drive through folks to make a burrito. So all common humans are descendants of people who lived in Africa between 100,000 and 150,000 years ago. The reality is that we are not much different from our ancestors of so long ago when it was easier to sneak up on a carrot than a rabbit.

Not so sure. I agree that meat was less and less common as you go back further and further in time, but I'm not sure that edible plants were all that plentiful either. If you subtract the meat that is so prevalent in our modern society, you must also subtract the produce which is clearly a result of our agrarian culture. I surmise that rather than eat more plant foods, our ancestors probably just went hungry. I know this sounds crazy, but notice that every time you see those shows like Man v. Wild or Survivor Man, the host is not eating a ton of salad and veggies, they just tend to go without.

It is easy to romanticize palelithic eating and assume that man was eating mostly fruits and vegetables with some lean meat added in for flavor. But, again, this falsely assumes that the produce so widely available today was as widely available back then, which it surely was not. More accurately, early humans probably ate a lot of insects (easier to "sneak up on" than animals), reptiles, sea food of all varieties, and wild tubers. True kills would have been rare, but early humans probably did a fair bit of scavenging off of other animals' kills. And when they did get a kill, the humans probably ate every bit of the animal: brains, organs, and all. When available, humans probably ate seasonal fruit and the few vegetables they might find.

So if you want to get back to your evolutionary roots, get going on those grubs, worms, reptiles, and brains. No? I didn't think so.

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Post  Joejoebaggins on Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:52 pm

sublime9 wrote:heh heh.

Dr Atkins looked like really bad to die at such an early age. Whilst the masses have different viewpoints on diet and what best suits humans I think Gibson's assessment is a pretty fair one. Go back 100 years and you reduce meat consumption by over 50% as well as grain consumption by around 70%. Our current food diet paradigm is a very, very recent creation. You also eliminate microwaves, pesticides, herbicides, mass amounts of sugar as well preservatives from the diet. Head back 500 years and meat was a rarity while raw foods as well as soups were the staple for the majority of people. Obviously royalty had access to these types of foods but common folk did not. So step back even further, let's say 2000 years and you are looking at even less cooked food and even more of a plant based diet.

I am not an evolutionist but I have read several books on animal evolution and the evolution of humans. Evolution takes time and I'm not talking the time it takes for Taco Bell drive through folks to make a burrito. So all common humans are descendants of people who lived in Africa between 100,000 and 150,000 years ago. The reality is that we are not much different from our ancestors of so long ago when it was easier to sneak up on a carrot than a rabbit.

It's hard to believe early man in any era would have been able to sustain himself on a diet of mostly raw vegetation. Any other food source besides meat (fat and protein) would not have provided enough calories for a hunter gatherer to function.

If we look at more recent tribes that lived similar to our ancestors (Turkics, Steppe nomads, Inuit, Mosai, Samburu, Mongols etc.) they all share a diet composed of 90% meat and animal products.
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Post  Gibson on Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:06 pm

hunter/gatherer?

It's much easier to test what works in the field when you are actually in the field.

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Post  Gibson on Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:22 pm

just to amend that last post, i am referring to a modern day field, such as a demanding workout routine that truly measures diet vs. performance, or a profession where diet must be utilized to maximize appearance, such as the performing arts.

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Post  nidhogge on Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:41 am

Consider that caloric restriction activates sirtuins, which has in-turn been found to increase lifespan of rats up to 30%. How many calories do we really need to function?

Just some food for thought when you start thinking of prehistoric man and his food sources.

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Post  Joejoebaggins on Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:41 am

nidhogge wrote:Consider that caloric restriction activates sirtuins, which has in-turn been found to increase lifespan of rats up to 30%. How many calories do we really need to function?

Just some food for thought when you start thinking of prehistoric man and his food sources.

Good point Nidhogge. It would be interesting if there was any kind of data on the daily activities of ancestors and what a base level of calories for them was.
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Post  Gibson on Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:21 am

it is safe to surmise that is was far less than what we consume today. hunting also involved this nasty little thing called tracking, which could last days. suffice it to say, food did not come easy, not by our standards.

However, the modern study and empirical observations is why it is apparent to me to reduce calories, or have periods of slight hunger, and exercise as well. But I'm just a modern man living in a modern world.

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Post  sublime9 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:47 am

EIC wrote:
Not so sure. I agree that meat was less and less common as you go back further and further in time, but I'm not sure that edible plants were all that plentiful either. If you subtract the meat that is so prevalent in our modern society, you must also subtract the produce which is clearly a result of our agrarian culture. I surmise that rather than eat more plant foods, our ancestors probably just went hungry. I know this sounds crazy, but notice that every time you see those shows like Man v. Wild or Survivor Man, the host is not eating a ton of salad and veggies, they just tend to go without.

It is easy to romanticize palelithic eating and assume that man was eating mostly fruits and vegetables with some lean meat added in for flavor. But, again, this falsely assumes that the produce so widely available today was as widely available back then, which it surely was not. More accurately, early humans probably ate a lot of insects (easier to "sneak up on" than animals), reptiles, sea food of all varieties, and wild tubers. True kills would have been rare, but early humans probably did a fair bit of scavenging off of other animals' kills. And when they did get a kill, the humans probably ate every bit of the animal: brains, organs, and all. When available, humans probably ate seasonal fruit and the few vegetables they might find.

So if you want to get back to your evolutionary roots, get going on those grubs, worms, reptiles, and brains. No? I didn't think so.

I concur we ate a lot less than we do now as the world just was not flooded your local store. Although produce, fresh from the ground, was actually more prevalent back then. There are several thousand green leafy vegetables that used to grow plentiful and wild where I live.

Obviously we can roll this debate on until the end of time. The closest ancestor to humans is a chimpanzee whose diet consists of almost half greens, around 40% fruit and the rest is split between nuts, seeds and insects.

Of course these diets are going to vary depending on what "sources" that area offered. The Inuit are one of the few indigenous people who eat a large portion of their diet as meat. The indigenous people in the amazon are known to eat almost all veggie's with a small bit of reptiles, insects and fish. Although there was one tribe, which slips my mind at this time, who have a large portion of vegans among them. They have developed an amazing knowledge of herbs and medicinal plants, the information is simply amazing.

If anything I think we can all agree that the current state of diet in the U.S. is rubbish.

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Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:20 am

Sublime - Good point.

I'm sure it's come across all of our minds that people emanating from various climates have a history of eating whatever is
available.

There is one popular book, http://www.amazon.com/80-10-Diet/dp/1893831248

In which the author believes we were originally designed for tropical climates. If he is correct it would be fruit and vegetable based.

Of course, I find that many people living in cold or very hot climates often eat meat.

I think metabolic typing gives some explanation (fast oxidizers = need meat), slow oxidizers do better with carbs.
The author, Douglas N. Graham suggests it doesn't matter that we are all suppose to eat a tropical based diet.

It's not my thing, but I thought I'd throw more controversy into the fire. Two different diets have worked for me, one was primarily vegetable juicing and a small amount of fruit juice (too labor intensive for me) and what I do now (the lazy way), high protein, fat and little carbs.
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Post  sublime9 on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:41 am

IH - I am unsure about eating a high meat diet but from my own experience a high vegan live food diet has me feeling fantastic every day.

And juicing is labor intensive, which is why I go to the local juice bar and let them do all of the work and most importantly the clean-up. I also need a larger amount of fats than most folks due to me being a fast oxidizer.

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Post  EIC on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:42 am

To be honest, this debate is really academic. Why is eating like a paleolithic man a goal unto itself? The goal should be to eat a healthy diet, not necessarily eat like early man. And on that score, Dr. Price observed traditional cultures with magnificent health. Why not just use those diets as a model instead of our best guess as to what paleolithic man did or did not eat?

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Post  Joejoebaggins on Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:24 am

EIC wrote:To be honest, this debate is really academic. Why is eating like a paleolithic man a goal unto itself? The goal should be to eat a healthy diet, not necessarily eat like early man. And on that score, Dr. Price observed traditional cultures with magnificent health. Why not just use those diets as a model instead of our best guess as to what paleolithic man did or did not eat?

Great point. Screw paleo man! lol.
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Post  CausticSymmetry on Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:35 am

I don't normally post headlines from Yahoo news, but what the hell:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080716/ap_on_he_me/med_dueling_diets
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Post  Gibson on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:01 pm

CausticSymmetry wrote:Sublime - Good point.

I'm sure it's come across all of our minds that people emanating from various climates have a history of eating whatever is
available.

There is one popular book, http://www.amazon.com/80-10-Diet/dp/1893831248

In which the author believes we were originally designed for tropical climates. If he is correct it would be fruit and vegetable based.

Of course, I find that many people living in cold or very hot climates often eat meat.

I think metabolic typing gives some explanation (fast oxidizers = need meat), slow oxidizers do better with carbs.
The author, Douglas N. Graham suggests it doesn't matter that we are all suppose to eat a tropical based diet.

It's not my thing, but I thought I'd throw more controversy into the fire. Two different diets have worked for me, one was primarily vegetable juicing and a small amount of fruit juice (too labor intensive for me) and what I do now (the lazy way), high protein, fat and little carbs.

Excellent post IH! I kept thinking of people who live near the equator, as well. Have you noticed that many who have adopted a meat-based diet are over-weight. The diets you mention also match my experience, and I tend move back and forth between the two. Currently, I am on the latter, but if you recall my detox thread, recently i was doing mainly raw: both have their merits.

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Post  Gibson on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:06 pm

I forgot to add, that link is also excellent, it's refreshing to read something on diet that allows for more than one approach.

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